Similarities between Moses and Mohammed

Great Debates
1

Strictly on the human level (no theological claptrap, please).

Mohammed is the best known and understood of all fathers of any religion. His life is fully explained and scrutinized, nothing left concealed or masqueraded, there are no stupid miracles that clutter the lives of other Holy men: we are always at the presence of a real man with all the virtues and all the shortcomings.

The figure of Moses is a lot more obscure, due to aberrations of age and mores. Still, from what can be glimpsed of a real man, Moses must have been very much like Mohammed.

Both M&M were stern men of the desert, enraptured by visions of divine revelation.

Both split their communities, put their lives in danger and lead their adherents away into the desert exile for years (Exodus and Hijra), only to gather force and take over their declared possessions (Canaan, Mecca).

Both, while not great warriors, were certainly determined to use brutal violence to achieve their goals and instill their authority (Golden Calf and Banu Qurayza massacres, for example).

Both were fully committed to connubial pleasures and most certainly not ascetic in any way (unlike some other prophets we know).

Basically, both M&M come through as nomadic Semitic prophets: no-nonsense, down-to-earth, tribal leaders, steeped in tradition, humble before God, enthralled by revelation, enforcers of few simple rules of devotion.

Dare to disbelieve?

2

This thread seemed lonely with no replies. I felt sorry for it.

Dare to disbelieve what?

All the prophets come from the middle east so nothing odd about them both being middle eastern. The middle east is a very sandy, desert-like place so all prophets come “out of the desert”. And by definition, all prophets have a divine mission.

The similarities you draw about them both going into exile seem tenuous to say the least (to me, anyway).

Personally I’ve had enough of middle eastern prophets, they just cause nothing but trouble. I am only going to follow a prophet who comes out of Iceland, I’ve decided. But I’m still waiting for her.

3

One difference is that we can be certain Mohammed was a real person. Moses probably was not, just as the Hebrews’ sojourn in Egypt and Exodus therefrom probably never happened. See this thread: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=183957

4

Well, I’m not clear on "theological claptrap"edness, so I’ll go with what I know.

Both Moses & Mohammed were certainly leaders and soldiers for their respective causes…but in my Islamic ignorance; I don’t know if Mohammed ever demonstrated any sort of power over physical nature as Moses was purported to have done.
As far as I’m aware, both leaders claimed to be representing God. What I’m unclear on, is if they both “represented” in the same manner…i.e. exhibiting some reign of power over natural elements, cycles or individual presentations.

(is that Theological Claptrapping?? I honestly do not know)

5

Sorry if you find my language too forceful, but I do not believe in miracles.

6

If you think that Moses actually existed and that he really performed miracles, then yes, it’s claptrap.

Moses is a totally mythical literary creation as are virtually all of the events in Exodus.

7

No miracles? Aren’t there a lot of miracles in the life of Mohammed? Didn’t Mohammed fly up to heaven?

8

I shall read your thread right after I answer (can hardly wait). I agree, the actual earthly existence of Moses (and Jesus) are very much under suspicion. However, I want to bypass that for now.

I am sure that there was some kind of ancient connection between Egypt and Hebrew people from the land of Canaan. Egypt was a huge regional power and land of Canaan must have been on the edge of it’s sphere of influence for most of the time. Egyptians might have been present there to counteract the advances of Hittites and other northern powers. I can imagine that many people from Canaan would go to Egypt for seasonal work or for much longer periods (perhaps it was not such a bad racket to build the Pyramids). I also read about Egyptian records of dispensing food to tribes coming from outside Egypt during times of hunger and other calamities.

My theory about Exodus is that yes, it never happened as described in the Bible. I think what happened was that Egyptian influence eventually waned and there was a vacuum of power in land of Canaan, sometime about 1300-1100 BC. All sort of dissent and infighting set in between various factions. Moses might have lead one of those factions. Due to reverses he and his adherents had to flee into the desert, where they wandered for a number of years (just like Mohammed) until they accumulated enough strength to come back and take over the whole land of Canaan. The rest is “theological claptrap”.

9

He flew explicitly only in his dreams. We all do that sometimes. There is a fable about all Kaaba idols falling into dust when Mohammed entered, but I think it dates from much later times.

10

I was trying to imitate a tribal patriarch. BrainGlutton put it better in his thread, “Does anyone have any contrary opinions?”

Tell me about it…

11

Just out of curiosity NewIskander are you Muslim?

Would regular visits from the Angel Gabriel be considered a miracle?

12

No.

I’d classify them with visions. I think visions are admissible; anyone can have them, if tries hard enough.

13

Ok. On the surface the similarities seem strong in many respects. A comparison could make a good book if it is written well enough. I wonder if any popular sort of work of this issue has been published yet.

14

Was your use of “claptrap” intended to be forceful?
I still don’t know what it means to be a “theological claptrap.”

If, according to Webster, theology is; " n the study of God and of religious doctrines and matters of divinity," and claptrap is " *n * showy, insincere, empty talk intended only to get applause," I think that your comment may lack luster.

If we’re involved in a serious discussion or debate of theology, then showy insincere empty talk doesn’t really come into play; and to have to make that distinction would be redundant.
Or am I being a claptrap?

…and the crowd goes wild :rolleyes:

15

Aren’t there parallel myths (or at least one other myth) in other cultures concerning Moses? I expect you are more familiar than I am about that. Does that evidence lend more or less credence to Moses’ actual existence?

16

As to the second question: There are many parallel myths to Batman, across cultures and centuries. Certainly doesn’t mean that Batman is real, or that there was one specific figure who all these myths derive from.

Mythical figures can be easily understood as figures in a morality play. Abusive despot is making life miserable for selected group. Protagonist who benefits from said reign discovers he’s part of selected group. Protagonist realizes we should all treat each other how we’d want to be treated, and dedicates himself to making things right. Everyone lives happily ever after through special-effects laden violence, excepting of course the evil despot who gets his comeuppance in the end.

Now, it’s doubtless there have been figures like that throughout human history. But that’s doesn’t have anything to do with Moses being real.

17

There are no known references to Moses outside the bible, so no other myth concerning Moses.
But of course there are parrallel myths. The hero being abandonned by his parents/mother and raised by someone else (be it animals, mythological figures, a member of the royalty for the son of an humble mother or the reverse) is a widely widespread myth, for instance. Even the floating craddle isn’t unique. There’s a Korean demi-god who crossed safely a river while the the followers of the king who were chasing him down were engulfed and drowned by said river, like in the parting of the red sea. It doesn’t mean these two myths are in any way related.

18

Maybe I wasn’t clear. I didn’t mean to imply that the parallel myth was about a guy named Moses. But that the myth was specifically about someone being sent in a reed basket as a baby down a river and being adopted by a ruling house. In other words, not just a coincidental parallel myth, but an obvious retelling of the same tale.

19

The main similarity of Moses and Muhammad was their role in restoring people to monotheistic worship of the god who created them. Muslims believed Moses was (along with Jesus and other prophets) the messenger of Allah to the Jews, just as Muhammad was their own prophet (and the ultimate one at that). They were both from prestigious tribes (Moses from Levi, Muhammad from Quraysh). Both were chased into exile, but for entirely different reasons (Moses didn’t receive divine instruction until he was in exile, while Mh. was sent into exile after receiving divine instruction). Neither looked a thing like Charlton Heston. Moses led an underclass to an ancestral land of their own while Mh. basically led an underclass to overthrow the overclass which then joined them to be one big happy class.

Muhammad and Moses were both married at least twice (Mh was definitely a polygamist, with Moses it’s assumed he was [the later life of his first wife, Zipporah, is not mentioned one way or the other; her last major appearance was when she used her son’s foreskin to stop God [who was in one of his moods] from killing Moses on hiw way to Egypt.) I don’t think it’s necessarily accurate to refer to them as hedonists (in our sense of the word, not the historical) based on this alone.

Both had names that started with M. Both listed the color orange and mint sweet tea as turn ons and “women who think they’re all that and a camel saddle” and Hittites as turn-offs. Neither ever appeared on Murder She Wrote.

20

That is Moses’ story. But it is not Mohammed’s story. He was not fighting despotism, he was fighting anarchy! He was born into an Arabia that was a society without a community – even a small city like Mecca had no general government at all, only the leaders of the tribes who lived together in an uneasy peace, often broken by raids and blood-feuds. Mohammed declared, no more feuds! Every Muslim is the brother of every other Muslim! We’re all one tribe now, under me and under God! In his declared earthly mission, Mohammed was a very different sort of prophet than Moses.