So theres that part where Frodo is being taken over by the ring and the ringwraith is riding the dragon thingy. Frodo is like holding the ring out and he’s about to get reamed but then Sam knocks him down and Faromir shoots 1 arrow at it.
And then it turns around and flies away…
Umm…Why? I thought those guys were like super-persistent.
[sup]BTW, I loved the movie[/sup]
Since Nazgul once were Men, Elves and elven things have a certain immunity (?) to them. A more in-the-know Tolkeiner will be along shortly…
Doubt this would’ve happened in real life. That whole scene was an invention of Peter Jackson. It was a huge flaw.
NoClueBoy - not sure what you mean? There were no elves in that scene AFAIK.
It’s hard to say what Jackson’s reasoning here was, especially considering the men were afraid of the wraith and the wraith knew it. Maybe knowing who had the ring was good enough for the wraith at the moment and he was just going to go report to Sauron? Sauron knowing where the ring was would’ve changed the whole ballgame though. I don’t know, I just can’t seem to find a legitimate excuse for that scene. Very large flaw IMHO.
Ooh, nit with my own post…
He wasn’t an Elf. He was Numenorean, right? It’s been a while since I did the books and I’ll be doing the movie tomorrow.
And isn’t it implied in Silmarillian, that Sauron corrupted men of Numenor to be Nazgul? So my post AND the movie, were way in error.
The 9 were given to the kings of men by Sauron. Not sure if they were specifically Numenoreans.
I’ve never been completely 100% on what Numenor is (I do know that the Numenoreans lived longer than “current” men such as Boromir/Faramir though.)
How does the fact that the Nazgul were men make an error in the movie?
In that a mere man would make them turn tail. Since they once were men and now have powers beyond mere men, how would one man with one arrow turn them away? Remember, I’m posting blind, since I’ve read the books a while back and haven’t seen the new movie yet.
So, after this clarification (maybe?) of what I meant I’ll bow out to let you guys talk it out and I’ll be back later. Or, I may just watch.
Some ringwraiths were of Numenorean origin. And you don’t know what Numenor was? :eek:
In my copy of Unfished Tales it shows a map of Numenor as being another continent or somesuch. I remember reading in the Silmarallion that Isildur & company came to middle earth from Numenor after a big battle or something along those lines. Was Numenor destroyed? Am I close?
One thing that gives me trouble with Tolkien is that the guy had 15 different names for everything (30 if it was important.) For instance, until recently I thought that Minas Morgul and Barad-dur were the same thing. I don’t remember if I was thinking that the last time I read the book or not but it gets hard to sort out what’s what if you haven’t read the book in awhile.
Another thing that leads to confusion is that he writes as if this is real history and therefore “assumes” that you already know some things and doesn’t go into proper detail explaining them.
Note that I’m not complaining about any of this, I love his attention to detail, it’s just a daunting task to constantly maintain a knowledge of all things Tolkien.
Peter Jackson compressed two or three incidents into one. They don’t play well for the consistency of the power of the ring, or its association with the Nazgul. In the books, if the ring was put on, the Nazgul could see the wearer. If the bearer of the ring deliberately turned his mind from them they would not feel the presence. (This happened at the entrance to Morgul Vale, in the book.)
The chief weapon of the Nazgul is fear. The morgul knife seems to require that the victim be at least part way in the spirit world, as Frodo was, when he put on the ring. (But, Eowyn wasn’t when the Chief Wraith smacked her with his mace, so go figure that one.) It was not some morgul dart that hit Faramir in Osgiliath, as Aragorn points out, but some Southron arrow, perhaps poisoned. The spiritual harm was not from a physical weapon but from the endless wearing dread of the Wraiths, and Sauron. Even in Eowyn’s case, the major harm came to her through her sword arm, with which she struck the Nasgul.
I think the nine rings are limited to enslaving one victim, and the ring’s bond remains when the ring itself is taken. I don’t think you can keep giving it out to others. Besides, it seems that you give these things to Kings, and the like, because they give power according to the stature of the one who wears it, even in the case of an enslaved spirit. The fate of the Seven is not specified, but some seem to have been destroyed by dragon fire, and some, regained by Sauron, who offered to give one to Dain Ironfoot, in return for his acquiescence in the dominion of the north lands. Dwarves make lousy slaves.
Tris
As far as my faded memories, that sounds right. The island the Numenoreans inhabited was destroyed by a tidal wave/sank to the bottom of the sea. They had the temerity to form a fleet and try to get to the elven lands in the west by force. I think having Morgoth (Sauron’s dad kinda) as an advisor to the king may have been a bad idea. :eek:
Okay, perhaps the Nazgul were, but it was the bird that took the arrow. It’s unclear how badly it was injured. Maybe the nazgul was busy just keeping the bird in the air.
Oh, and Cisco, re:
None of it would have happened in real life. 
Ok, yea, whoooo, yea, we’ve seen whackos like you around these parts before mark, and frankly we don’t take too kindly to them, just ta give you fair warnin’!
Seriously, what’s with this guy anyway? “Didn’t happen in real life” LOL!
After the first age (the overthrow of Morgoth) the 3 houses of men allied with the elves were given an island as reward along with an extended life span. The world was flat with Aman to the west and middle earth to the east. Numenor was closer to west than east and has never known evil. There, the Numenorians grew in both physical and mental stature becoming more like elves.
The people become restless and the kings become hungry for wealth and power. Sauron meanwhile has been running rampant over Middle Earth only being held in check by the elves (barely). The Numenorians in their pride decide that Sauron represents a threat to their tributary states along eth western shores of middle earth. So they go after him, and win, sort of. Sauron realizes that his forces won’t win so he surrenders and smooth talks his way into being taken as a captive to Numenor. Once there he corrupts them even further pushing the king to sail into Aman and declaring war on the Valar (gods) to seize life everlasting. The shape of the world is changed. What was once Aman gets pulled out of the seen world and the middle earth is changed into a sphere. Numenor itself is thrown down into the abyss. Sauron himself flees back to Mordor; while Elendil and his company flee to the shores of middle earth.
Of sure :rolleyes: this I can remember but what I ate for breakfast yesterday is a mystery.
Cisco, get yourself a copy of “Atlas of Middle-Earth” and refer to it frequently while reading The Silmarillion" and LOTR. Do this 5 or 6 times, and it will all become crystal-clear, and you too will be able to recite the history of Minas Ithil, aka “The tower of the Moon”, Isildur’s City, etc. And tell of its fall and transformation into “The tower of Sorcery” or Minas Morgul, home of the Nazgul. Meanwhile, across the river, Minas Anor, or “the Tower of the Sun” was renamed Minas Tirith, or “The tower of the Guard” and Osgiliath broke and fell into the river, or at least the Master Palantir (crafted by Fëanor himself in the deeps of time) did. Why the hell they put the master Palantir on a bridge over the river I’ll never know.
Emarkp prob’ly had a good point – the Nazgul themselves were, for the most part, immune to mortal weapons that weren’t enchanted or Elvish or some durn thing. They didn’t like light, and they feared fire (hence Aragorn torching one of them on Weathertop was a way of getting rid of them temporarily.
The Morgul-knife would have worked fine on anyone. The kicker here seems to be that the Nazgul didn’t “see” the way most people do – they seemed to have some trouble seeing into our world. Putting on the ring, however, made you plainly visible to them. They could sense its presence to some extent, but couldn’t pin it down exactly unless you were dumb enough to put the ring ON.
This, I suspect, is why Elijah Wood did his little eye-rolling overacting number every time a Nazgul was near. The ring WANTS to be found, and would therefore start bugging Frodo to PUT IT ON, PUT IT ON NOW!
One of the Nazguls’ weaknesses were their dependence on mortal steeds, though. When Arwen pulled her trick at the river ford of Rivendell, she couldn’t kill the Wraiths, but she could sho’nuff wipe out their horses. This left the Wraiths on foot – no normal horse would carry a Ringwraith! Their only choice was to get back to Mordor somehow and obtain fresh transportation (hence the Fell Beasts in Two Towers – they don’t drown as easy, I suspect).
When Faramir plugged an arrow into the Fell Beast, it reacted rather badly. I’m assuming that the Nazgul couldn’t exactly see Frodo standing there in front of him, but guessed that he was nearby, but got distracted REAL quick when he realized that he was about to have another critter shot out from under him.
Hence, Faramir’s decision to let Frodo go makes more sense. He had to have known that if Frodo remained, he was going to be up to his ears in Nazgul REAL damn quick…
I’ve seen the movie twice now, and while at first I had a problem with the way PJ introduced this whole “Frodo in Osgiliath showing the ring” business, I now feel that it doesn’t really screw things up too much.
In the book, Sauron isn’t sure where the ring is, but he assumes that it will wind up in Gondor, or be taken up by one of the wise and be used against him. And then Aragorn reveals himself in the palantir as Elendils heir and now he is really scared. The heir of Elendil may actually have the power to weild it!!! He needs to strike and strike fast…
In the movie, now he KNOWS the ring is IN Gondor. I assume Aragorn looks into the Palantir in RotK. He is going to want to hit Gondor hard and Fast before Aragorn has a chance to figure out how to use it. Meanwhile Frodo sneaks in and does his business. Plus, I never noticed before how close Osgiliath actually is to Cirith Ungol. Frodo and Co. were heading that way anyway
Concerning the Nazgul. Their cheif weapon is fear (spanish inquisition) and the general disorientation of men when their around. Plus they can not be killed by man, but their steeds can and are …
Thanks guys. These are both pretty similar explanations I think. And I can buy it. Rinwraiths need transportation. Now if Faramir shot the ringwraith and it flew away, that would be pretty cheezy, huh?
Not only cheesy, but impossible. I seem to recall that in the first film, someone SAID that mortal weapons can’t harm the Nazgul. In particular, there’s a prophecy about one of the Nazgul, the Witch King of Angmar, that says he cannot be slain by the hand of man or something like that… which winds up playing a major part in the third book.
I will be EXTREMELY pissed if that scene isn’t in the third movie.