Since when is anti-Semitism a liberal idea?

The BBQ Pit
21

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]

Hello, my name is eleanorigby and I’m a liberal. I am critical of Israel --I think their treatment of Palestinians is deplorable and wrong. Yes, I realize that Israel is threatened and attacked by Palestinians. I also realize that it does not seem to be in Israel’s best interest to achieve peace with Palestine–lord knows they don’t seem to work real hard at it. If a country wants peace, they need to work for justice–and treating Palestinians like second class citizens (to put it mildly) is not the best thing, longterm or even short-term.
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Not that Israel hasn’t made a lot of mistakes WRT the Palestinians, but if you really believe this is a fair characterization of the situation, you really, really need to do a lot more reading on the subject. Every move Israel has made toward peace has been thrown back in their face.

22

Not too many kind sentiments towards Israel on the Pacifica Radio web site. My challenge: find one pro-Israel article on the Pacifica Radio site.

FWIW, I’m quite left of center. Talking with other liberal Jews – i.e. the majority of Reform, Conservative and Reconstructionist Jews – there seems to be a general feeling of “WTF?” regarding general anti-Israel sentiment of many on the left. Excepting American Jews and the US Congress, where are the vocal pro-Israel liberals?

23

FrantzJ:

Gee, how did that happen? I hope you’re not telling us that you (in a small way) worked to suppress the distribution of a paper because you didn’t like what it said. That would be cowardly and despicable.

Outside of the fringes where “left” and “right” don’t mean much, I haven’t seen the kinds of anti-Israeli extremism you’re talking about. (Incidentally, “anti-Israeli” doesn’t mean “anti Jew”. For that matter, neither does “anti-Semitic” necessarily; Jews are not the only Semites.)

I do see completely uncritical support of Israel in our current government, including for a while an official policy of urging Israel to not stop killing people in Lebanon. I see the issues cast in black and white, with any reasonable criticism labeled as “anti-Israel”. As you mentioned, U.S. liberals have lots of legitimate criticisms of our own country; doesn’t make us anti-American.

24

[QUOTE=FrantzJ]
Another thing people say is “it’s not anti-Semitic to be anti-Israel.” Yes, it is not anti-Semitic to be critical of Israel. It is anti-Semitic to believe that the killing of Israeli citizens is justified under any circumstances, and it is very, very anti-Semitic to believe that Israel should not exist. Saying that you don’t hate Jews but don’t think Israel should exist is like me saying that I don’t hate the Japanese, I just think that Japan shouldn’t exist.
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I agree with much of the OP’s post, but I don’t think it is anti-Semitic to say that Israel should not exist and it is not even a remotely valid analogy to compare Israel to Japan. The majority of Jewish citizens in Israel immigrated there or their parents immigrated there. Their ties to Israel were from hundreds or thousand of years ago. I hardly see how one can make a serious argument that a european jew has more rights to live in Israel than a palestinian who was born there, or whose parents were born there. My ancestors were kicked off their crofts in Scotland by the English. That was just a couple hundred years ago and I don’t see my self going back to reclaim my ancestors land.

That said, Israel does exist. It was sanctioned by the UN and the Israelis just want to live in peace. I am uncomfortable with any development that would threaten Israeli citizens.

25

[QUOTE=DanBlather]
I don’t think it is anti-Semitic to say that Israel should not exist
[/QUOTE]

As I have remarked far too often, when they try to put us in the ovens again, we have a place to go.

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[QUOTE=DanBlather]
I agree with much of the OP’s post, but I don’t think it is anti-Semitic to say that Israel should not exist and it is not even a remotely valid analogy to compare Israel to Japan. The majority of Jewish citizens in Israel immigrated there or their parents immigrated there. Their ties to Israel were from hundreds or thousand of years ago. I hardly see how one can make a serious argument that a european jew has more rights to live in Israel than a palestinian who was born there, or whose parents were born there. My ancestors were kicked off their crofts in Scotland by the English. That was just a couple hundred years ago and I don’t see my self going back to reclaim my ancestors land.

That said, Israel does exist. It was sanctioned by the UN and the Israelis just want to live in peace. I am uncomfortable with any development that would threaten Israeli citizens.
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All nations form by the movement of human beings. Just because Israel formed sixty years ago does not make it any less valid of a nation than Japan. It is not our duty to hand back the U.S. to the Native Americans, and it is not the Israelis duty to hand back that section of land to the Arabs. By the logic of “we were here first”, it is our duty to hand back the entirety of the world other than Africa to wild animals.

This is not to compare the Palestinians to wild animals. But the goal should always be a workable solution, not a wild effort to deport the “invaders” just because they weren’t there first. The Jews may have not had their own nation a century ago, but we do now, and Israel is not about to move to Alaska (even though AnJad suggested it). They’re going to stay there. A peaceful solution is the only option.

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[QUOTE=carnivorousplant]
As I have remarked far too often, when they try to put us in the ovens again, we have a place to go.
[/QUOTE]

Israel is basically gool for Jews, the one truly safe place to go should the country where they live turn anti-Semitic. If it existed in the 1930s, the Holocaust would probably have never happened; instead history would have recalled a massive pogrom that drove most Jews from Europe. The presence of Israel is an incredibly comforting and reassuring thought to most Jews in the Diaspora, even if they disagree with many of the nation’s actions, or never step foot there.

I’m a convert to Judaism. My distant descendants will have to live with my decision to embrace the covenant. I want them to have a safe place to go should there be a pogrom in the US, or wherever they might call home.

There’s many predominantly Catholic countries, though. However, there’s only one predominantly Jewish state. If there were several other Jewish states, maybe anti-Israel sentiment might not be viewed as necessarily anti-Semitic. With one country containing a bit less than half the world’s Jews, though, it becomes more difficult to disconnect anti-Israel sentiment with anti-Semitism.

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[QUOTE=elmwood]
Israel is basically gool for Jews, the one truly safe place to go should the country where they live turn anti-Semitic. If it existed in the 1930s, the Holocaust would probably have never happened; instead history would have recalled a massive pogrom that drove most Jews from Europe. The presence of Israel is an incredibly comforting and reassuring thought to most Jews in the Diaspora, even if they disagree with many of the nation’s actions, or never step foot there.

I’m a convert to Judaism. My distant descendants will have to live with my decision to embrace the covenant. I want them to have a safe place to go should there be a pogrom in the US, or wherever they might call home.
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Yes, but Arabs would say why punish them for what the Germans and other Europeans did. It would have made more sense to carve off a part of Germany and Austria.

In any case, Zionism precedes the Holocaust and I don’t think many Israleli’s would “justify” (I wish I had a more neutral word) the creation of Israel because of it.

29

[QUOTE=FrantzJ]
All nations form by the movement of human beings. Just because Israel formed sixty years ago does not make it any less valid of a nation than Japan. It is not our duty to hand back the U.S. to the Native Americans, and it is not the Israelis duty to hand back that section of land to the Arabs. By the logic of “we were here first”, it is our duty to hand back the entirety of the world other than Africa to wild animals.

This is not to compare the Palestinians to wild animals. But the goal should always be a workable solution, not a wild effort to deport the “invaders” just because they weren’t there first. The Jews may have not had their own nation a century ago, but we do now, and Israel is not about to move to Alaska (even though AnJad suggested it). They’re going to stay there. A peaceful solution is the only option.
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I agree with your last statement.

30

I think there’s no defensible way to necessarily equate anti-Israeli or anti-Zionist sentiments with antisemitism. Some folks may not like what some Jews do, but that’s not necessarily because they’re Jews.

31

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]

I don’t consider not supporting a nation’s approach to foreign policy as “racist”
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No, but most go far beyond “not supporting a nation’s approach.” They critcize its right to exist, despite the fact that they live in countries whose histories are rooted in human rights violations. They have rallies wherein they praise Hezbollah. They write articles claiming that they would kill innocent Israeli civilians if they were in the Palestinians’ place.

They take every single Israeli military decision and put it under a magnifying glass. A mistake is evidence that Israelis are terrorists and that its government wants to kill innocent civilians – it’s “all too convenient” for the Israeli army to make mistakes, to be sure. They also criticize Israeli military decisions whose US equivalents they support; for example, they vehemently criticize assassinations of terrorists, but do not care when the US targets OBL. They criticize Israel for invading Lebanon recently – not just their supposed war crimes, but the invasion itself – despite the fact that the US and Europe invaded Afghanistan for similar reasons (harboring terrorists).

They turn off their brains whenever a terrorist mentions Israel. “You see! Osama wouldn’t have attacked us if Israel wasn’t so mean.” Yet they don’t realize that he uses useful idiots like this to try to influence policy, and that he would have attacked for other reasons if he couldn’t use Israel as an excuse. They also never seem to understand that Hamas, Hezbollah, etc. want to destroy Israel. They think that if Israel appeases the terrorists they will go away. For some reason they seem to ignore a long history of people hating Jews for no good reason; no “war crimes” are necessary to want to destroy Jews.

Worst of all, they compare Israelis to Nazis. This is the most disgusting argument of all, for obvious reasons. It’s fairly obvious why this is disgustingly anti-Semitic. For example, if I told Al Sharpton in a debate, “You’re just like a slave owner.” Imagine that he didn’t become rightfully angry and kept his cool, responding, “How am I like a slave owner?” Imagine that I had no good response, as would people who compare Israel to Nazi Germany. The only conclusion is that they’re commiting an act of emotional bullying.

A manifestation of this anti-Semitism is the exaggeration of the Israeli lobby. It is all too reminiscient of the “Zionist Occupied Government” to exaggerate the power of this lobby to almost hilarious degrees.

I should note that when I say “they” I don’t mean to imply that I think liberals are some monolithic, Israel-hating people. “They” means liberals as a whole from whom I’ve heard or read these arguments. And I should point out that many liberals fairly criticize Israel, and some don’t criticize them at all.

And it’s not that I think these people hate Jews. It’s that they’re being incredibly unfair to the one and only Jewish nation. I don’t think they hate Israel because they’re Jewish (who does?). But they’ve turned Israel into some horrible right wing symbol unto which they let out all their impotent rage against the right wing. It’s unfortunate, because Israel has a lot of very left wing roots.

While some liberals would love to set up a strawman that people like me think that “anyone who criticizes Israel is anti-Semitic”, the issue is quite a bit more nuanced than that. And I know liberals love nuance, considering the whole debacle last presidential election that was caused by the lack of nuance concerning Kerry’s policies.

The European Monitoring Centre on Racism agrees with me that unfair treatment/expectations of Israel is a manifestation of anti-Semitism. I’m not pulling this out of my ass.

32

Fuck it. This whole thing makes me want to turn isolationist.

I know this: it takes two sides to make a war or a peace. It takes real work, with real concessions on both sides to come to accord. I don’t see that happening. And I hold Israel to a higher standard, since it has more resources, and is supposed to be democratic. As distasteful as it is to look at it–there are reasons for terror as a bargaining ploy. It works, sadly and often enough. Killing innocent people while trying to weed out the terrorist cells is not working, to my eyes. Bombing the shit out of Lebanon for the sake of 2 Israeli soldiers is overkill and ill-judged. And then I read that Israelis don’t think the attacks were harsh enough. :smack:

For every “good will” gesture reported in the news re Israel, there are just as many provocations on Israel’s part. And no, I don’t have a cite. I have been hearing about this shit on the news since I became of aware of news–circa 1978 for me(age 16). I don’t want to know the extreme actions on either side’s part–what a pissing contest to win(!).

Unless you want me to believe that Palestinians are all evil and want Death to Israel (which is how it is characterized–like all this suicide bombing happens in a fucking vacuum), Israel must be the “bigger man”. Sharon was on to a good thing when he made those setters relocate–and some of them refused. And then they are astonished when this is disapproved of? That’s amazing to me.
What I, and I think most people, want to see is REAL progress towards accord and for Israel to stop playing the victim nonsense-it has nothing to do with anti-Semitism. There are no people (except the crazies) who want Israel to disappear. Yep-go ahead, quote me the party platforms that deny Israel statehood. It doesn’t matter. The Republicans here want to ban abortion-talk to the GOP and see how many really want that. (no I am not equating Israel with abortion-the point is that party platforms say alot of shit that isn’t carried thru or even aspired to in RL. Do I approve of such sentiments? Absolutely not). But Israel needs to work with what is–not what it thinks it deserves.

What I continue to be amazed at is the atrocious treatment towards Palestinians from Israel, all the while Israelis cry, “but we are the victims here!” Bullshit-they collude in their own victimhood. But then, the Holocaust is dragged into it, and that’s a real dialogue stopper. I’m tired of that being used as a stonewalling technique. Christ, I can see someone here accusing me of being a Holocaust denier based on that remark. I’m not.

For two cents, I’d wash my hands of the whole thing.
Does that make me anti-Semitic? NO-it makes me fed to my backteeth with this whole dysfunctionality. I am sick of hearing about it on the news; I am sick of having it take center stage when we have domestic problems and OTHER global problems to deal with. Grow the fuck up, Israel and come to the table-and STAY at the table. The exact same thing could and should be said to the Palestinians.

I still can’t get over their whole “well, we live here now and fuck you, Palestinians-get out” stance post WW2. And they wonder why there are problems. They MADE a culture of hate from those “temporary” refugee camps–and you reap what you sow. Shut up and deal, please. And don’t trot out the old, “but we don’t deal with terror”–terror is what you live with right now. Perhaps it is time to deal with it in a different way. I by no means have all or any answers–but bombing the shit out of Lebanon doesn’t make you any new friends or build trust in the region. Way to go; Israel does it again–ensure that another generation grows up hating it.

Israel is a democratic state in a very troubled region of the world. I realize they can’t force the arab nations to accept them, and if I, a Midwestern housewife, realize it, surely some of those brains in the Israeli government could realize it too.

IOW, what Israel is doing is NOT working to bring about accord. Yep-same applies to Palestine. Jesus, with Arafat gone, you’d think there be a chance here for something.
Sorry for the rant. In no way do I hate Jewish people. I no more want to see any of them die than I want to see a Palestinian die.
But I refuse to say that anything goes when it comes to solving this conundrum. There has to be a better way–and IMO, it is up to Israel to find it.

33

I never said that anti-Israelism is equal to anti-Semitism. But they often go hand in hand.

Person A believes that Israel should work harder to treat the Palestinian people with dignity, and make efforts towards a satisfactory solution.

Person B believes that Israel does not have a right to exist, that the Palestinians are heroes, and that the Jews are the sole perpetrators of violence. Person B isn’t bothered when yet another Palestinians blows himself up on an Israeli bus.

Person A is not an anti-Semite. Person B is.

34

Just want to say that I didn’t read Polamalu’s post-we must have been posting at the same time.

I have no idea who he (she?) is talking about. I am the most liberal of Democrats and have never heard any such views espoused. Osama linked to Israel? Baloney and then some. This sounds like party paranoia to me–what party I have no idea, but it is NOT the democrats here.

35

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]

I have no idea who he (she?) is talking about. I am the most liberal of Democrats and have never heard any such views espoused. Osama linked to Israel? Baloney and then some. This sounds like party paranoia to me–what party I have no idea, but it is NOT the democrats here.
[/QUOTE]

You have to be kidding me. Google “Israeli 9/11” and knock yourself out. I’ll look around for a particular scholar who blames our support for Israel on 9/11.

And I never linked it to Democrats. I know the Democrats support Israel and I am very happy that I am not forced to vote Republican based on this issue.

36

OMG. I now think you all are living under bridges somewhere.

I am highly suspicious of “guests” who post such inflammatory subjects.
That “theory” has been debunked many, many times, and I believe decried by all sides of the issue as well as religious leaders.

If you take that type of story as “evidence”–you need to go back to school.

Learn something.

37

Um, what? I am not actually saying that Israel provoked 9/11. I’m saying that other people do. What the hell is your problem?

38

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
I still can’t get over their whole “well, we live here now and fuck you, Palestinians-get out” stance post WW2. And they wonder why there are problems. They MADE a culture of hate from those “temporary” refugee camps–and you reap what you sow. Shut up and deal, please. And don’t trot out the old, “but we don’t deal with terror”–terror is what you live with right now. Perhaps it is time to deal with it in a different way. I by no means have all or any answers–but bombing the shit out of Lebanon doesn’t make you any new friends or build trust in the region. Way to go; Israel does it again–ensure that another generation grows up hating it.

Sorry for the rant. In no way do I hate Jewish people. I no more want to see any of them die than I want to see a Palestinian die.
But I refuse to say that anything goes when it comes to solving this conundrum. There has to be a better way–and IMO, it is up to Israel to find it.
[/QUOTE]

Nothing Israel does can stop the Arab world from hating it. Nothing. Muslims, for the most part, are fundamentally opposed to the idea of a Jewish state existing. The concept of any Muslims being ruled by non-Muslims makes them sick; a poll showed that sixty percent of British muslims wish that Britain was ruled by Islamic law.

Palestine is a verbal weapon for anti-Israel Muslims. They would hate Israel if there were no arabs in Palestine at all, but since there are, they can gain sympathy by pointing out Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians.

Of course, there is nothing wrong with pointing out that Israel has mistreated the Palestinians. Except, the Muslim world by and large is much worse in their anti-Israelism than Israel is in their treatment of Palestinians. AnJad wants to destroy Israel, and that’s nothing new. He also wants the nukes to do it. Polls in some parts of Lebanon showed 99 percent support for Hezbollah. They hate Israel so much that they don’t realize it is Hezbollah who caused their country to be invaded.

As for it being Israel’s responsibility to find a solution, I have no idea where that is coming from. The Palestinian people and the rest of the Muslim world would not care if every Israeli Jew dropped dead. Does Israel have any desire to kill people? No. Jews do not take to the streets of Tel Aviv when they hear that there have been Lebanese civilian casualties. Israel is a functioning democracy, which most Arab states are not. Women have rights there, but not in the Arab world. Homosexuals are brutally mistreated in most of the Muslim world.

So is it the 1st world nation’s duty to make peace with the Palestinians, who represent 1.2 billion people who hate them? I don’t think so.

39

[QUOTE=elmwood]
Israel is basically gool for Jews, the one truly safe place to go should the country where they live turn anti-Semitic. If it existed in the 1930s, the Holocaust would probably have never happened; instead history would have recalled a massive pogrom that drove most Jews from Europe. The presence of Israel is an incredibly comforting and reassuring thought to most Jews in the Diaspora, even if they disagree with many of the nation’s actions, or never step foot there.
[/QUOTE]
But for all that, it’s an incredibly precarious entity. It’s between some of the most anti-Semetic countries on Earth and the deep blue sea. Why any group of Jews would choose that place out of all the other spots on Earth will forever be beyond me. There are no guarantees in life, but it seems that there is even less of a guarantee than usual that Israel will continue to exist as something other than a glass parking lot.

Israel has, therefore, made a lot of harsh decisions in its brief existence, racking up a large number of enemies around the world. This is compounded by the fact that it is a young country: Its whole existence has been under a magnifying glass and broadcast in the news. If someone questions how Israel does things, they can find things to back up their claims. (Well, assuming their claims are rational. A little harsh on Palestinians? Check. Making matzoh out of Christian blood? Nada.) The worst parts of American history took place long before there were any really good ways of recording events.

40

[QUOTE=Weirddave]
Not that Israel hasn’t made a lot of mistakes WRT the Palestinians, but if you really believe this is a fair characterization of the situation, you really, really need to do a lot more reading on the subject. Every move Israel has made toward peace has been thrown back in their face.
[/QUOTE]
Not that the Palestinians (especially the official groups such as the PLO and Hamas) haven’t made a lot of mistakes WRT the Israelis, but if you really believe this is a fair characterization of the situation, you really, really need to do a lot more reading on the subject. Every move the Palestinians have made toward peace has been thrown back in their face.