If you hadn’t been in such a rush to post, you might have noticed that I indicated one of the incidents involved either Cracker Barrel or Shoney’s. If you check that link you find indications that it fits the pattern I described - false alarms due to provocative and/or stupid behavior and possible overreaction by an observer(s). My personal take on what happened at the Shoney’s (the facts were never conclusively established, to my knowledge) is that the Arab medical students involved spotted her paying attention to them and decided to gaslight her with spooky dialogue, causing the resultant mess.
The only incident I mentioned that you comment on is the Annie Jacobsen affair, which was discussed in detail here a few years ago, with various posters deriding her as hysterical and/or racist, and others (like me) not buying into all her claims or her conclusions, but thinking that the Syrians involved had called attention to themselves by acting strangely, that officials had been concerned enough to investigate on their own, and that some aspects of airline security deserved debate.
Excuse me for not being terribly impressed at your own “cites”, which include “an anon.” and yourself.
Since I did not refer to “many” incidents or “reports of arabs rushing at cockpit doors”, you are pulling strawmen out of your arse, which sounds painful. :dubious:
It all goes back to choosing to understand or not.
I woulkd like to think that I would suck it up. Think about this. What if they issued a statement like this:
We were terribly disappointed and saddened by what happened. We felt humiliated in receiving treatment that was degrading and completely undeserving. I hope you all can imagine how we must have felt. However, we bare our fellow Americans no ill will. I have to understand that many people in the U.S. do not have much exposure to Muslims or their practices. I can see that for many the only exposure they may have had to our religion is through those that have hijacked and contorted it for evil, murderous purposes. 9/11 is still with us. It may be for a long time to come. I would ask you, my countrymen, to realize that we are as different from those terrorists as you are from Timothy McVeigh. We love this country. We think it is the best place on earth. That is why we are here. We hope the day comes soon when those not of our religion can look at us and see Americans. Americans with the same desires hopes and dreams for ourselves and our children as any other American. This embarrassing incident happened. I think it unfortunate for all concerned. But we must move on. The quicker we do, the closer that day will come when a Muslim praying will be as inocuous as a Christian wearing a cross or a Jew the Star of David. America is a great country. But it is at it’s best when it is great for everyone. Thank you for your time.
Or something like that. Do you think that might have helped the larger situation more than calling for a boycott?
Fact is, no other religious group has been hijacked by an army of terrorists and killed three thousand Americans on our own soil—in the name of the religion. That’s the reality. To expect people to ignore that is completely unrealistic. And I’m not sure it would be healthy if they could.
It may not be terribly fair. But if the goal, which I think it is and should be, is to gain more acceptance and not have similar events repeated, one course of action is a better means to that end. They have the right to choose either path. I, and others, have the right to criticize that choice.
I think it does mitigate it, quite a bit. The fact is that terrorism is linked to Islam.
Muslim or not, anyone who tries to fly anywhere is subject to intolerable behavior on the part of government and the airlines.
Screw being treated like a criminal without probable cause! We should all adopt the attitude that if we can’t get there by car, we just won’t go. Let the airlines all go broke! Let the officious TSA be declared redundant because nobody will fly and let the lot of the bastards be fired!
No, it goes back to willingness to be treated like shit or not. You wouldn’t expect anyone else to be treated like shit and smile, would you? Why should Muslims be any different?
I doubt it. You seem to actually have a spine. I think you’d stick up for yourself, and tell the assholes who were treating you unfairly where to shove it. I’d lose a hell of a lot of respect for you if you didn’t.
No, I don’t. Because no matter how often moderate Muslims do say things exactly like that, they still get automatically treated like terrorists. A while back, in a similar debate, I gave you a bunch of links to hundreds of similar statements made by Muslims. Your response, as I recall, was that it “Wasn’t enough.” What you’re asking for, here, is for people who have never committed any crime to not only accept being treated like criminals, but to apologize for crimes that they never committed and with which they have absolutely no connection. That you cannot see why this is an intolerable expectation is simply baffling. These men are not terrorists. They shouldn’t be treated like terrorists, and when they are, they shouldn’t be forced to apologize for their religion.
If the goal is fairness, you aren’t going to achieve that by rolling over and taking it in the ass when someone treats you unfairly. Minorities do not get equality by waiting around for the majority to give them to them. They don’t get it by accepting that they deserve to be treated like shit. They get it by being angry, and by refusing to take it any more.
And we seem to be doing our level best, as a nation, to tell them we don’t want them to do that anymore. This strikes me as unfortunate, both for us and for them.
I look at it differently. The goal is to not be treated like shit. Anger may tempt you to respond in a cetain way. That doesn’t mean that railing to the high heavens, righteous as it may be, is the best avenue for not being treated like shit in the future.
That’s why I said “I’d like to think…”. But my whole point is I don’t think them taking the offensive is the best way to get the reception they desire. I, personally, would be much more apt to 1)feel bad about how they were treated and 2) feel better about the group in general if there was more along the lines of what I suggested. When they take the offensive I hear “Fuck you, non-Muslim Americans. We’re here and your laws protect us. We are free to pray how and when you want. The fact that some other Muslims blew up three hundred people is not our problem, it is yours. You must look at us and see Muslims differetn from them, etc.”
In fact, my response to just reading that over is much the same attitude that is possesses: a good, “oh yeah, fuck you…” right back. That doesn’t seem to help the larger situation in my book.
They weren’t treated like terrorists, they were treated like people of interest. They were questioned for less than half an hour, for goodness sake. Don’t try to make it sound like they were roughed up in some back room and water-boarded. I beleive that not only was this a blown opportunity, but that it is incumbent upon any of us who identify with a group to point to beahvior done in the groups name that you find unacceptable. This was an opportunity for them to have a very public platform with people very inclined to side with them. They had me. They lost me. Boycott an airline for making a mistake and erring on the side of saving lives? Fuck you. (Not “you”, Miller.) sorry if you thiink that is unreasonable. I’d bet most people would agree with me. Which is axactly why I think they missed an opportunity.
Well, Gandhi and Dr. King I think would disagree with much of this. I think it is fine and normal to get angry. The question then becomes what is the best response? One that shows your anger? Not necessarily. There are other options. Just because you are angry doesn’t mean that the best response is anger.
I disagree. I think they have been quite accepted. Could we (I) be more empathetic to their situation. Probably. I think many of them could be more acknowledging of the situation at large, as well. When I don’t see them doing it, I am not so inclined to give a shit. Seems like human nature, to me.
I must have missed something, the reports I saw mention that they indeed were interrogated for half and hour, then the authorities let them go, so they then tried to get the flight rescheduled, the airline refused still to accept them, yep even after the authorities said they were OK. Who missed the opportunity to make amends then?
Indeed, I´m travelling to Bangkok in January and even though it´s (much) cheaper to fly a route that has stops in US territory I´m going the other way, through Europe.
It wasn´t nice to be treated like a criminal right from the visa request information leaflet, let alone being asked to pay 100 non-reimbursable dollars for the privilege of having an interview to see if I´m worthy of a US visa or not.
Now if I had got the visa I was going to be fingerprinted and photographed, filed and had my personal information tagged on a non-private chip on my passport.
Did I mention that´s just to have the privilege to change planes within the LAX airport?
Screw that, I´m flying East; I´ll post pictures of Paris on MPSIMS.
The US policies are already doing a helluva job in boycotting the airlines, I don´t understand why some are so upset about a few wrong-done people doing the same.
It is not so much that “the terrorists have won” as that large numbers of people have rolled over and cravenly surrendered their minds to the terrorists and the fears that the terrorists hoped to inflict.
That’s pretty much the conclusion I came to a while back, at least for shorter flights. Tampa to Atlanta, fly or drive? Flying time is about an hour… plus another hour or so for check-in procedures, during which I am forced to remove my shoes and give away all remotely pointy objects which I may have forgotten I was carrying (or beverages, if they’re still doing that). Plus I may still be in danger of losing my flight when the automatic drug sniffing gadget mistakes the paperbacks in my luggage for crystal meth. And of course there’s always the joy of arrival, when I discover that the airline has cut the locks off my bags anyway, as they are apparently free to do.
On the other hand, driving to Atlanta takes about seven hours. However, even with gas prices the way they are, it’s still cheaper than flying coach. I can recline my seat comfortably; I have plenty of leg room; I can play Creedence at OSHA-prohibited volume levels; I can drive while wearing big light-up clown shoes if I want to. Plus, I can fill the trunk up with actual crystal meth and not have to worry about it (or at least several cases of beer illegally transported across state lines). And the average Flying J counter worker is way more civil than their airport equivalent, even if they do speak less fluent English. So, yeah, I’m on board with the boycott.
The decision was not based on any reasonable factors, but on irrational hysteria and bigotry. The Imams were doing nothing that merited their expulsion. The decision may be the pilot’s but we have the right to criticize it. Also, as others have said, the pilot does not have the right to kick anyone out because of their religion. That’s illegal discrimination.
Can you point to an example from history where your approach atually met with any results or real change? I sure can’t. And we’ll get to Dr. King and Gandhi in a minute…
Aside from the “fuck you,” what’s wrong with that message? They are here, and our laws do (or should, but it looks like that hasn’t happened in this case) protect them. They are (or should be) free to practice their religion when and where they want. The fact that some other Muslims killed a bunch of people is, in fact, not their problem. At least, no more than it is yours or mine. And as near as I can tell, that “fuck you” isn’t to non-Muslim Americans. It’s to people who think that because they’re Muslims, they deserve to be treated like shit. And it’s to the people who excuse or minimize that treatment as somehow deserved or expected.
Why? Why does their reaction to this piss you off? You’re the one putting yourself in opposition to these guys. They aren’t coming after you, their anger isn’t directed at you, it’s directed at the people who have wronged them. Why are you voluntarily standing with those people?
And banned from any other flights on that airline, even after it had been proven that they were not terrorists and were not a threat. But I guess they should have expected that, too?
I don’t think you’re really in a position to admonish other posters for hyperbole in this thread.
Can a Muslim ever do anything public except apologize for 9/11? Is there any excess of mistreatment where they can just say, “I didn’t do anything to deserve this, and it’s wrong for me to be treated like this, and it has to stop?” At what point does every Muslim in the world not have to go around under a giant cloud of guilt and suspicion because of the actions of a few handfuls of religious maniacs?
Like hell they would. They wrote the textbook on how to respond to treatment like this. They would not have been violent, but you really think they’d have issued a statement like the one you suggest? You think Dr. King would have written something like, “While we think it’s unfortunate that there continues to be so much racial discrimination in America, we understand the white Americans are not comfortable around black Americans. We think this is tragic, and look forward to the day that you will allow us to sit at your lunch counters, to drink from your water fountains, and sit in the front of your buses. But, hey, no hurry, take your time on that. We can wait.” Fuck no. King and Gandhi didn’t roll over in the face of oppression, they fought back. They marched, they protested, they boycotted, they did every thing they could, short of physical violence, to get the treatment they felt they deserved. What have these Imams done that’s so different? They haven’t threatened violence. They haven’t destroyed property, or blown up buildings, or started shooting people. They voiced their anger, and started a non-violent movement to force the airline to change its policies through economic pressure. This is exactly what non-violent protest is about. King and Gandhi would have approved entirely.
Really? You only care about social justice so long as the victims are saying things you want to hear? When an asshole is oppressed, or discriminated against, or treated like a second-class citizen, it’s okay. Because hey, they’re an asshole, right? Who cares about them?
You are also free to call for a boycott of a business that practices illegal discrimination. You are also free to sue said business for said practice also.
Last I heard, the passport itself is also non-private. In other words, it belongs to the issuing government, not the bearer.
That said, it’s pretty ridiculous that you need a visa just for transit. Hope your flight doesn’t have to transit other countries (such as some of the former soviet republics) that require transit visas. I’m also looking forward to the photos of Paris! It’ll be interesting to see how much it’s changed (or hasn’t changed) in the 26 years since I was last there.
