Well Chimera, 4 women in a row telling you you’re all wet. Care to respond to them?
At the risk of putting my foot in it again–there’s stuff here that I disagree with. I think that, for Skald, it really ain’t no thing. The analogy to flashers is not, I think, good, because as you note, the flashers are going for shock and for discomfort. Skald seems to think what he’s writing is not explicit or shocking. When you confronted him, he responded:
Now, I’m not saying what he wrote wasn’t explicit–just that there’s no sign he considers it explicit. (And it’s easy, if highly unpleasant, to imagine what an explicit description would have been). I really don’t think he’s going for reader shock; rather, he’s going for enough detail that people understand what’s going on, and to justify the boyfriend’s response.
That doesn’t mean that it’s not shocking to readers. That doesn’t mean that it’s not tone-deaf. It makes total sense to me to ask him to either tone it down or to include warnings in the future.
But comparing him to a flasher? That’s not about your reaction, that’s about his intention. And I don’t think there’s enough evidence to justify ascribing him those intentions.
And again, this sort of writing is incredibly common in bestselling thrillers/mysteries, with a fair amount more detail than in Skald’s posts. I don’t think all those authors are equivalent to flashers in their intents, either.
Good grief! Will you just stop it with this nonsense? Jeez, a guy acts good in your eyes, and ONE disagreement about sexism and you’re willing to write them off. FFS!
You’ve done this before with me and it’s f’n lame.
By way of analogy: the black man dies.
Another cliche in modern thrillers is that the nonwhite sidekick character dies pretty early on in the story. The death is narratively useful: it establishes that the villain is a real sonofabitch, while leaving the (white) hero alive to take care of business.
It’s also an obnoxious cliche, and it’s fair to call people on it.
What wouldn’t be fair, IMO, would be to suggest that the people using it hate black people, or are fantasizing about killing black men, vicariously enjoying the murders. That imparts a motive to the authors that doesn’t reflect what they’re actually doing.
Don’t ignore authors doing this. Call them on it. Explain one’s own reactions to it.
But if you ascribe them motives–well, erring on the side of caution seems prudent to me.
No, a lot of stuff happens in this world that we don’t want to see or hear. It isn’t up to the world to protect you from it, it is up to you to protect yourself from the world.
Now for Skald, I’ve said that I don’t read most of his hypotheticals. Several people have said they’ve read them and don’t see the same things you see in them, Helena 330. Obviously this judgement of him isn’t universal.
If he was in my house and telling stories that made people uncomfortable, I would shut him down in a heartbeat. But that’s my house, where I make the rules. Anywhere else I’d be looking at him cross-eyed if people grew uncomfortable and left the room. I might even join them and talk to him about it later. If they sat silently, allowed him to finish and then attacked him for it, I’d be uncomfortable with that because they chose to remain and listen to it rather than walking away or shutting him down.
But TPTB here have obviously never reached the point of warning him for this behavior or shutting him down. That’s their decision, and they don’t appear to be judging him in the same light that you do.
LoHD we’re not talking about other genres, like books, movies, newspapers, comics, doodles, hallways conversations, dreams, or anything else. People are saying this one particular thing on this board is offensive and they would like it to stop. The poster apparently has said he doesn’t agree, and there you go, discussion over.
Now the discussion seems to be that you and others don’t think that those who are offended are right to be offended. Why are you arguing this? It’s particularly fraught territory because it’s offense over sexual content. This seems like a ridiculously fruitless, not to mention insulting, avenue to pursue. If someone is offended, they are offended. If it’s sexually offensive and demeaning to women, even if you don’t think so, it’s not appropriate to hand wave that. Now, you’re the one who’s being offensive and demeaning.
Are women incapable of deciding when they have been creeped out on their own? Do they need a male member to approve their *request to feel creeped out * by a pervert?
This is not an overall rule. Clearly.
I mean, set first amendment stuff aside, just in case anyone wants a sidetrack–set it aside for now. You know those assholes who set up outside abortion clinics with bloody photographs of aborted fetuses? They’re assholes, right? And saying, “just ignore them,” doesn’t dispense with their assholery. People that fly Confederate flags? Assholes. People that have racist bumper stickers? Assholes. People who get in shitty profanity-laced arguments with their spouses in public? Assholes.
But it’s true, as you note, that not everyone is bothered by Skald’s threads. In the one we were talking about most recently, there were at least five posters that I’m pretty sure are women who were discussing the hypothetical without taking note of the offensive scene. THIS ISN’T SAYING THAT PEOPLE SHOULDN’T TAKE NOTE OF THAT, but it does point to some people–including some women–being more comfortable with that kind of thing than others.
It’s a balancing act. At what point is it likely enough that a chunk of the audience will be bothered by particular content that the author should know better than to include it without warning?
I’m super-freaked out by needles. But I know that my level of freak-outedness is really unusual, so I have no reasonable expectation that books/shows will avoid using syringes (AND THEY’RE NEVER GOOD. Seriously, watch how syringes are used in shows, they’re just about always something terrible).
I think that’s different from folks who are bothered by sexual violence. There’s a much larger contingent of people who find its presence in fiction deeply unsettling; there’s a much stronger argument that people should include warnings if they’re gonna include such scenes.
The fact that it’s not a universal dislike doesn’t mean that the people who do dislike it are on their own, any more than it means the same thing for those pro-life aborted-fetus assholes.
LHoD, I didn’t name you in one of my previous posts because I think you’re genuinely trying to understand, but the comparison to crime/horror authors is off base. I watch the shit out of Law and Order:SVU. The difference is that of consent. I know exactly what I’m going to get when I watch that show. And there are a handful of episodes I avoid because the sexual violence gets a little too graphic and I can’t stomach it. The unraveling of the crime, the legal tactics, and the psychology behind the crimes are interesting to me. The couple times it’s made me uncomfortable I turn on something else. Same goes for people who read/watch horror. I love horror films, but I avoid the torture porn type movies because again, I can’t stomach them. The difference is that Saw or Hostel don’t drop themselves into the middle of an episode of Friends with no warning.
on preview: Chimera, you are no longer worth engaging, if you ever were. Fuck you.
Oh my god. I am being as clear as I know how to be that I’m not saying that.
Okay, that’s why I wrote:
Chimera I agree that the thread has done what it was supposed to do, which is raise the issue and give Skald a chance to respond, which he has. If people have remained silent (i.e., not reported) when they saw a problem, then I don’t know how TPTN would be able to take action, necessarily.
Again, the issue I have with this thread is telling people that they are wrong to take offense, and they should just not read his threads. This misses the point. This is a Pit thread, where one comes to tell people that one is offended. It’s also dismissive and insulting. The solution, clearly, if someone is bothered by a particular situation is to report it right then and there, rather then let it fester.
Er, not working. Stop making comparisons to other genres and saying “no ones gets skeeved out about this” and that might help.
- Please find ANYTHING I have said that is remotely equivalent to “no ones gets skeeved out about this.” Because I have said:
and
and
and, in all caps
- The comparison to other genres was to authorial intent, not to the presence of scenes in genres.
Said nothing of the kind.
But the issue here is that none of us get to decide to make him stop posting this stuff. The board administration and moderators are the only ones with that power. If you want it to stop, report the damned posts, complain to moderators. If they aren’t being made aware that people are offended by something or if they’re only getting a few ‘usual suspects’ that complain about them, they have nothing to act on. They’re also perfectly in their rights to tell you to put the man on ignore or stop reading his damned threads.
That’s not being dismissive or insulting, that is reasonable advice to people who don’t like someone’s threads. Jesus Fucking Christ, some of you have been tracking this shit for 12+ years. Why the fuck are you still reading his hypotheticals? That’s like watching a torture porn movie 40 times and then demanding that the studio pull the movie from circulation because it keeps bothering you.
Hell, I put Clothy on ignore a very long time ago, because I saw no value and nothing but froth and anger in his posts. I have about 14 people on my ignore list now for various reasons.
This board bans people for repeated bad behavior, not for making some people uncomfortable.
What does banning people have to do with criticizing people for behavior/requesting they change their behavior to acknowledge how it makes some people uncomfortable?
As I already pointed out to you, Skald has said he has a bad love for humiliation porn. In what way is it prudent to err on the side of “maybe he doesn’t like shocking/humiliating women”?
The original complaints weren’t that Skald was neglecting to put content warnings on his threads. It was: “Skald’s a creep who get’s off on this shit.”
I’m not trying to talk people out of being offended by anything. I just really wish people would stop drawing conclusions out of fictional stories.
LHoD, I really get that you’re trying to do this the right way. But you can’t be listening when you’re busy defending yourself. I’d say you’re almost there (but if I speak for the women I’ll surely screw it up.)
They’re perfectly free to criticise him. Or complain to him. But some people clearly want the board administration to do so for them, which I had imagined would come from mod notes, then warnings and a possible ban (as the ultimate, but not necessarily certain end).
If the person decides not to change, then what? Keep complaining about it for another 12 years or stop reading the damned threads?
The part where he said he stopped, years ago, maybe, and stopped because he thought it was bad for himself and for the women involved? The part where there’s a less vicious explanation for his posts that make sense? The part where it’s possible to address what he’s doing without imputing flasherlike motives?
I mean, you’re right. But I’m doing everything I can to make my words clear, including putting things in all-caps; when people are claiming I’m saying something reprehensible that is the exact opposite of what I’m saying, it’s pretty frustrating. I’d like to be able to converse without being attacked for things I said the opposite of.
Who is calling for his banning? Maybe I missed that–but this thread is in the Pit, not in ATMB.