Skilled Trades are a viable path to the middle class

Absolutely. I’m mechanically disinclined; anything more complex than putting a quart of oil in my car, changing the air filter in my furnace, or installing a new doorbell, is outside of my skill set. I have a huge amount of respect for tradesmen who are able to do things that I can’t do, and which are needed to keep my home, my car, etc. functioning properly.

I do agree that, as a culture, there’s been a tendency to look down on those sorts of jobs in the past few decades, and to devalue them in favor of jobs which require a college degree – and, honestly, a lot of jobs which now “require” a college degree probably don’t actually need to, but it’s become table stakes for those career paths.

Should practicing a skilled trade be a viable path to a solid middle-class life? I think it should; we, as a society, need people who know how to do those sorts of jobs and do them well. What I, and I think the other posters, are saying is the reality of the situation is that it isn’t always possible any longer for tradesmen to achieve that kind of lifestyle.

I did not mean for that to come across as a lack of respect for people in skilled trades or truckers. The point I apparently failed to make was that trucking may no longer pay enough to support a middle class lifestyle.

It’s not GQ, which is why I proffered it in the first place. However, I did find the story here - and a response to the story from what seems to be a trucking-focused media outlet here. The latter doesn’t seem to contradict anything said in the report.

Do note your cite is to Canada.

As to the US the story was (is?) rather different. Another of my brothers drove long haul trucks for these guys for 3 or 4 years back around 2003-2007. That was just as electronic log books and monitoring was coming into the industry in response to widespread illegal operations being “just the way it is.”

He ended up pulling down about $30K/year gross for 52 60-hour weeks at all odd hours. He slept at home 1 day per month. And you will not meet a more disciplined hard-working suck-it-up kinda guy than my bro. The folks who couldn’t keep up the pace made a lot less. Or quit or were fired.

I’m told that the widespread enforcement of electronic recordkeeping since that era has reduced the number of hours worked down to the actual legal maximum. But that reduction came directly out of the drivers’ incomes, not the companies’ profits.

That website (Careers >> I’m a driver tell me more) includes info about the various bonuses they pay for sticking with the company more than a couple months. Which seems to indicate them keeping people is difficult. The website is unsurprisingly silent on what they actually offer in wages, not extras.

I don’t mean to pick on that company; they had (have?) a perfectly decent reputation among the mid-sized regional/national carriers. But it’s a shit job in a shit industry. That wasn’t true back in the fully regulated and unionized days of the Teamsters. Back when LBJ was President.

But it is now. Or at least has been fairly recently and IMO still is.

What is usually left out is that not everyone has the aptitude for the skilled trades. I’m speaking as someone who would have loved to skipped college, but I just didn’t have the ability to learn. My dad and brothers were very handy, and patiently tried to teach me things like car repair. I just couldn’t make my hands do it. I have no doubt the trades are a great option for some people, but some of us have to find something that requires no mechanical ability. Sometimes that means going to college whether you want to or not.

Was there any doubt that skilled trades are a viable path to the middle class? Not to get into a debate on the semantics of American “class” structure, but I generally consider the “middle class” to be people who work a variety of steady jobs that affords them a reasonable American lifestyle of home, car, a bit of recreationally activity and whatnot. From my personal observations (mostly in my younger days when I was a civil engineer), the subcontractors who did the plumbing, electrical, welding, HVAC, and so on seemed to do ok.

One of the advantages of those sort of jobs is that you can pretty much do them literally anywhere. Compared to say, working as a Manhattan investment banker or Silicon Valley engineer where (at least before COVID-19) you had to be in close proximity to overly expensive New York or San Francisco.

I would say that one downside to the trade path is that it kind of locks you into that trade. A college degree tends to have more flexibility in terms of changing career paths. It also exposes you to more things so you have a better idea of the sort of jobs and industries that are out there.

Contractor and carpenter here. Some of the trades are pretty hard on the body–I did a lot of framing and timber framing, and my body is pretty beat up at 53. I can no longer do those things to any great extent. But, you can definitely earn a middle-class living (or better) in the trades. If you’re good. The crew and I were just talking about some roofers here in MT who work each day until they’ve each made $500. Usually by lunch. Piecework drywallers who kick butt can easily make $80/hour. A painter I know who’s a one-man show and works only on bid says if he’s not making $100/hour he’s screwing up. Even if you’re an hourly carpenter, $35-60 an hour is a living wage. It’s also axiomatic that if you’re smart you will eventually graduate to management or running your own show. The portability of the skills is a definite plus, too.

Moderating

It is not appropriate to argue moderation in thread. Moderation should only be disputed in ATMB.

Warning issued.

Okay, I’m going to push back a bit against this just a little. This is perfectly fine advice if you’re a comfortably well-off or scholarship-laden kid who is going to school full-time as his job. It’s not so perfect advice if you’re going to school full-time, while also working another full or multiple part-time jobs to cover your living costs and school expenses. Which describes the vast majority of folks that went to my large urban state university, which had almost no on-campus housing and an average undergraduate class age of 25. A lot of those folks were going back to school later in life. To say they should have the time and energy to do everything you just listed, with the implication that if they didn’t they were a bunch of slackers, I think is more than a little elitist.

That’s just not realistic for a good chunk of students. IMHO education is almost always useful including, on average and in the long-term, economically. But we can’t all be at the top of the class.

Indeed. One solution is government - steady pay, good benefits, retirement plans. At my job we’re always short electricians and it is not entirely due to management incompetence. We get no shortage of applications but most of the local electricians came up in the construction trades - they’re whizzes at wiring a house, but simply can’t pass our entrance gate exams for industrial work. With the local decline of medium/heavy industry to draw from, getting fully qualified people is a serious issue.

Same at my job. I completed industrial electrician apprenticeship 30 years ago. Last year my employer sent me to Advanced PLC and Robotics course. My son will be doing many of the same things over the next two years as part of his schooling. As I told him, someone has to fix the welding robots when the board fries. I’ve done well enough, and actually could have done better with different lifestyle choices, to be paying for his sister’s 4 years of state university. He worked for two years and saved enough to pay for his own 2 years of school to get his automation degree. I could conceivably retire when both are out of school.

Stranger_On_A_Train

I was aware of the situation regarding non-industrial welding, but the question remains, how do you gain that initial experience?

“The push to emphasize the notion that everyone needs a “four year college education” started in the ‘Seventies and ramped up into the ‘Eighties until skilled trade work came to be looked down upon despite how utterly dependent our economic success is on such labor. Today, we have millions of people who are collectively carrying $1.6T of college and professional school debt, many of whom have degrees that are of no particular vocational use and are facing occupational obsolescence with the coming automation of intellectual labor.”

Exactly, and Europe has done much the same thing. The UK seems to have been a major offender in this respect, due to a long-standing disdain for the skilled trades and engineering, and in recent decades the proliferation of higher education through the creation of new universities. I am tempted to put “universities” into quotation marks for the newer institutions, as these new institutions were freed of the typcial requirement to do original research. Ergo, they are just degree mills.

Since there are more people in the UK in higher education, the money devoted to education has to be spread thinner. In the past, and at the time that I was at university, we had means-tested grants that (just) covered our living expenses, plus there were no fees. That has changed; now there are student loans, few get grants, and fees have been charged again, with recent increases that make me wonder how anyone could afford to go to university. There is a contradiction between higher education for all and then in effect privatizing it so that only the wealthy can afford it, as was the situation many decades ago.

Add to that the simple and inescapable fact that only a small proportion of the population has the intelligence and academic aptitude to study at university level. Widening the scope of the universities means lowering their academic level. In the past, it was well known in Europe that many US universities offered tuition at little more than high school level, and I suspect that some of the British ones are similar. Plus, they offer courses that the traditional uiniversities would not, such as the much-derided Media Studies, and which have next to no value in the job market.

Unlike much of Europe, an arts degree in the UK does not mean that your are more or less forced into teaching, it was regarded as an indication that you were capable of learning in your new job. But the multiplication of graduates has simply meant that employers raise the bar for the required qualifications and a degree of any kind becomes a requirement for quite mundane jobs. Those with one of the less regarded degrees are no better off than if they had never had a degree at all, and these days they are loaded down with debt.

I read that around 30 of these newer universities are in danger of bankruptcy, and I am very tempted to say that they would be no loss, as they merely perpetuate the problem. They would be better going back to what they often were, vocational colleges that provided useful education for those who needed to catch up. But in the last resort it is a problem that has been created at the government level, and needs to be resolved likewise. The policies in place do not provide the students that the labor market wants, and often it does not benefit the students either. Those that drop out, sometimes after quite a long period of study, are saddled with the debt, a sense of failure, and no qualifications beyond a school leaving certificate. And many drop out because they can no longer afford to study. The recent fee increases will no doubt exacerbate this trend.

But I have my doubts that the present UK government will resolve anything.

I agree with the rest of your post but this implied snark about the former polytechnics is also part of the problem in my view.

I have a degree from a former polytechnic, and I have a degree from a redbrick rated top 10 in the world. I didn’t notice any difference in the standard of tuition; in fact the worst two lecturers I’ve ever met were at the latter. And the former poly absolutely does good quality research even if they are not “required” to.

But when going for a job of course I have to lead with mentioning the redbrick because, in the UK, our idea of higher education is very snobbish, and eg a degree in any subject at any level from Oxbridge trumps any non Oxbridge degree. And pointing and laughing about former polys is a standard pastime.

Now I know that your meaning was just that some of those institutions would be better served by returning to being more vocational, and I agree. But I think those institutions will have little uptake in terms of both student enrollments and industry interest while this snobbishness / elitism exists in British culture.

“I agree with the rest of your post but this implied snark about the former polytechnics is also part of the problem in my view.”

Neither type of university is good or bad across the board, some of the new universities offer very good courses, and the older ones may not be stellar in a certain area. As a graduate of a redbrick, I can say with certainty that there was some dead wood among the tutors!

But, poly or redbrick, and snobbishness apart, does the UK really need so many universities, and should to concern itself more with vocational training? The latter includes engineering, a victim of snobbishness in the UK And there still remains the question as to whether it is worth offering higher education to all and sundry, especially when it does not guarantee a better job, or, in extreme cases, any job at all.

I had no idea it had gotten that bad. Former Teamster here, drove in the late 70s/early 80s. I made about $650/week (35K/year), even back then – in 1980 dollars. Not sure what that works out to in today’s money, but it was a great job in many ways. It was definitely a middle-class pathway then, but maybe no longer.

As has been said, it depends on the trade, and it depends on the region, but yes, you can make a middle class income with a skilled trade. The Union Delta airlines mechanic I share a back yard with put two kids through private school, lives in a middle class house in the burbs, and his wife doesn’t work outside the home - that seems pretty middle class to me. And someone with a skilled trade, business skills, and the willingness to do so can do very well. I know a guy who started as an HVAC guy, opened a company, and sold it 30 years later for eight figures. One of the guys I graduated from high school with - a guy definitely NOT voted most likely to succeed, is a multimillionaire from owning a construction company. The hairdresser across the street bought the salon/spa she was working at and they do well enough that he quit his job (as an airplane mechanic) just to help run the salon (they do well in part because he can do all of the facilities work). .

I think this reasonably informative post misses out rather a lot due largely to the fact the person making it is not a tradesperson and is from a far more academic background/inclination.

Some electricians and some plumbers, and some construction workers etc MAY have short term - contract work - determined jobs, but that is probably the minority.

This misses out on specialists and maintenance, it misses out on technical grades and also misses out on how large contractor/construction companies operate - generally speaking it is in the interests of all their employers to ensure continuity of skilled employees, skills are not just in the hands and minds, they are also in the attitudes of the workers involved.

As an employer of trade skills you are constantly trying to find and retain the right folk, discarding your workforce at the end of a project is always going to be detrimental to your organisation - the costs in recruitment, training and predictability of work output are all serious considerations.

If you are running a production facility then it is likely you will have skilled technicians, probably multi-skilled, the loss of one hours production can easily exceed the total pay of your entire maintenance department - I’ve seen some replacement parts and machines literally costing hundreds to millions of $. Just installing and setting these up is well worth the cost of continuing to employ the tradespeople merely to be on site and available.

I’ve seen cases where the costs per hour of downtime on electrical distribution can be in the order of hundreds of k per hour and on certain jobs excess downtime can be well over £10 mill per hour. You cannot have casual trade skilled staff operating in such an environment.

When it comes to construction/installation - that is just one segment of the trades industry, and for most tradespersons its not considered to be a long term employment prospect, my own experience is that this is work for those who are young and willing to move around a lot - but its also for the most part not as skilled as the permanent staff roles.

Your take on getting electricians is a point worth reiterating, I think some of the posters here are assuming the tradespeople they see represent the whole of the skilled trades range, and it isn’t.

In my trade, industrial electrician we would regard intallation electricians as at the much lower end of the trade - unless it was installing specialist equipment such as body scanners or HV work.
Installation tradepersons are not usually at the top of the trade skills heirarchy, and they are the minority of tradepeople in general.

When you get to my level you’d better have at least 10 years, at least a diploma and if you want to go further you will need a degree - OK I was toward the upper end of the skill range, and I’d be the sort that either maintains specific makes of machinery across many sites driving a van with diagnostic equipment or permanent on site maintaining production/generation/distribution and environmental controlled equipment.

Such work is very secure, in the electrical tech field your CV is pretty much the places where you worked previously - and it would be easy to call a previous workplace and check up, likely as not you’d probably know or be aware of the maintenance departments of other companies in your town. I’ve seen some tradespersons move every few years just to get the chance to work on differant equipment until they finally settle down.

The problem in Tertiary education is finding the skilled tradepersons who also have the academic teaching qualifications.

Trying to find a brickie that has done their Cert Ed is like trying to find a needle in a haystack.

I moved from working in hospital electrical maint through to teaching in a prison and found it hard enough to work AND get the teaching qualifications. The standard required by learners in prisons was pretty low but the standards required by the tutors was right up there. Result is that most rades courses in prisons have closed, those that remain operate at too low a level to make a learner a viable trades employee - but at least what they do learn might get them through a factory gate as an improver.

Vocational training in the UK has always taken a second row seat to academic training, and this shows itself markedly in management where you find so many academic managers trying and failing badly at trying to run facilities.

That sounds like someone who has some business management skills; scheduling multiple people across multiple worksites, ordering the flooring materials, managing the payroll, sales and customer relationships. There’s probably a lot he could learn in a bachelors degree program in business. If he doesn’t have that, he’s probably learned on the job, and made some mistakes along the way. The point is that he can’t be an idiot and have that kind of business.

I would also assume that actually working in that trade pays better than teaching. Typically the case in the US anyway.

You are correct, however as various others have mentioned, some trades have physical limitations - when you cannot work at an industrially viable rate your pay will drop - if you can find work at all.

Generally speaking a good brickie will make more than a teacher - quite a lot more and also will not have a massive education debt to pay off, on the flip side most brickies will only have a pension if they specifically set one up.

Getting to around 50 and then going into vocational teaching secures employment at less money but at least with certan benefits. I’ve known a few who also did specialist restoration work as a sideline to teaching, which also works well when included as part of the apprentice learning plan.