I turned on the TV, right in the middle of some political discussion by Afro-Americans. What got my attention was the subject matter. They are trying to get the US Government to pay reparations to Blacks who are descended from slaves for enslaving their ancestors. My jaw dropped at the audacity.
First thought: They’re nuts.
Second thought: This oughta really make Blacks popular with Whites if it goes through.
Third thought: I guess they figure we don’t have enough racial problems already.
My ancestors were slaves several thousand years ago, thanks to the Romans. Should ‘my people’ file suite against Rome? My ‘people’ were oppressed by the Catholic Religion a few hundred years ago, can ‘we’ sue the Vatican? My ‘people’ were persecuted when they got off of the boat under 100 years ago, harassed and generally treated badly. Can ‘we’ sue the American government for this?
I think the suit/action is based on the observation that an American Indian Tribe recently obtained a settlement from the Federal government for abuses suffered in the past.
I think this suing over stuff done in the past is ballsy and ridiculous. You think … ?
I believe reparations are not based solely on recompense for the atrocities done, but on the idea that freed slaves were promised “40 acres and a mule” and never received them. Estimates of amounts are based on some present value of those assets which were never delivered.
Probably so, but to bring up such a concept in this day and age, with racial tension starting to increase again, is not the wisest of actions and is virtually certain to generate hard feelings. If such a case is resolved to the satisfaction of the complainants, the actual award will be minimal, but, like the American Indian suit, will have set a precedent allowing any race or religion persecuted by the general government to file suit.
…if the government ever allows such lawsuits! This will be litigation heaven-the potential is unlimited!
As a descendent of Irish-Americans, I’m thinking seriously about suing Great Britain (they were complicit in causing the mass emigration from Ireland during the “Potato Famine”.
Can we extort money from British-owned firms doing business in the USA?
Wahoo! I think we’re really on to something here!
I’m not sure how analogous these situations are. Slaves were part of the economic system of the time and it’s too bad but descendants aren’t entitled to what their freed ancestors were promised. Fine, but Japanese who were interred were given reparations even though their imprisonment was part of wartime activity. So is it only victims of activity after a certain year of enlightenment that should be compensated? How do we decide?
Because there are racial tensions in this country, people who are oppressed should just buckle under for the sake of the greater peace? I understand that it would be difficult, probably impossible, to quantity and compensate for injustices against various groups, but in the case of slavery reparations, it is based on an actual provision made by the government that was not fulfilled.
Yes, but who’s supposed to pay for this? All four of my grandparents came here from Europe within the last fifty years. None of them had slaves. I don’t wish to be held liable for a promise made by the American government a hundred years before any of my family were Americans.
Skribbler said: I think this suing over stuff done in the past is ballsy and ridiculous. You think … ?
I think we need a cite, Skrib. Many different proposals for considering reparations to African-Americans have been discussed in many different fora: which one are you referring to?
If this is just something you picked up off a TV show, you probably don’t know the answer to that, so we won’t get much further. I move that we hereby assume that the proposal you’re asking for debate on is H.R. 40, a bill introduced in the first session of the 106th Congress with the following title:
You can get the full text of the bill if you go to the Library of Congress’s Thomas site and search on H.R. 40. As far as I can tell, it was referred to the House Judiciary Subcommittee on the Constitution in February '99 and nothing’s happened to it since, so this whole discussion may be just a tempest in a teapot.
But in case the bill is still “live” in any way, I note that it’s not directly about making reparations at all: it’s about setting up a commission to study reparation proposals in the context of the history of American slavery, and to determine how far the American government was culpable and which of the negative consequences can be remedied at this late date. Since reparations are being seriously discussed by many people as a necessary measure, I think it’s actually a good thing to take a good hard official look at the issue, although I agree that it’s not likely to result in any very substantial tangible benefits for anyone. But maybe that’s not the most important thing.
And I must say, Skribbler, that I agree with gigi that opposition to the idea of reparations specifically on the grounds that it will make white people resent blacks is somewhat unfair and unreasonable. Black people (or some of them, at least) are claiming that the government treated them unjustly and should make restitution; there are many good reasons to object to this, but fear of reinflaming white racism isn’t one of them. What, people should hold their tongues about what they see as a need to redress injustice just because it might stir up some hateful people to cause trouble? No, I think black people (and anybody else) have a perfect right to suggest something “audacious” without being shushed because we’re afraid the racists might hear them.
Stella said: All four of my grandparents came here from Europe within the last fifty years. None of them had slaves. I don’t wish to be held liable for a promise made by the American government a hundred years before any of my family were Americans.
Nice try, Stella, but I don’t think that objection is very valid either. By that line of reasoning, since the American government made some terrible decisions about permitting people to dump toxic waste in the environment in the 1960’s and '70’s, you should have to help pay for cleaning it up (because your family were Americans by then), but a Southeast Asian-American who just became a citizen this year shouldn’t have to. That way madness lies.
Nope, we’re all in this together and the government has to act in the name of all of us, even on issues like admitting retroactive liabilities that predate your or your family’s citizenship. There are good arguments against making slavery reparations and some of them have been mentioned here, but whining “No fair, it wasn’t MY fault!” doesn’t count as one of them, IMO.
OK…then can I demand reparations from the Germans, since they killed my great-grandparents, 2 great-uncles, one great-aunt, and an uncle? (I’m Jewish…)
Stella, is that an indirect way of saying that slavery reparations aren’t a good idea because they set too wide-open a precedent? I think that’s a more valid objection.
Was there some legally binding promise, or was it just some sort of idea thrown around by politicians? I could hardly imagine treating every government slogan as a promise for which the gov’t could be made to pay reparations.
Kimstu:
**The important thing in this is to distinguish between “culpable” as in act of government, and “culpable” as in having a legal system which allowed slavery. In the case of the Japanese during WWII, they were imprisoned by the US government, which is responsible. But to hold the government responsible simply for not having outlawed slavery sooner than it did is a terrible idea. By this account, the government could be made to pay reparations for not having prevented any number of activities that were subsequently outlawed.
Yes, that is indeed the problem. Lots of groups have been mistreated throughtout history & the idea of monetary reparations is an extremely sticky issue.
I am NOT, however, opposed to HR 40. Some sort of public recognition wouldn’t be a bad thing. At least we had Nuremberg, got to put those bastards up there and hold them accountable for what they did.
I have heard that a lot but I have no idea where it came from. Who promised the 40 acres and a mule? Was it ever actually written into law? Who was suppose to provide all of these things? And if a promise is made and not kept doesn’t that just sound like politics as usual? Read my lips, 40 acres and a mule for all.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that the American Indian suit is based on the Federal Government making reparations for numerous broken treaties and is based on political rather than racial issues.
Hell, I’d better start sueing!
I’m Irish, so gotta sue those damn Brits!
I’m Polish-oooh…better sue the Russians, the Austrians and the Germans.
I’m Hungarian-gotta sue the Austrians AGAIN!
Hey, I’m also German! So if I sue the Germans for what they did to my Polish ancestors, then I’m suing myself!
Dammit, I don’t like this idea. I mean, come on!
The thing about our ancestors come over later is, that hey, we were also opressed. Look at what’s going on in Latin America?
Hello, look at POLAND. Look at IRELAND…
Dammit, Lilibet owes me.
As far as forty acres and a mule…that was a campaign slogan. It was not in writing. Hell, if all campaign slogans are true, then why did Bush say-No More Taxes!
The reason I think people say it will only cause more bitterness is because, well, it will. And over a such a simple thing. It’s not going to change the past. The best thing to do is look to the future.
I am assuming that reparations would only come from taxes paid by white people. It makes no sense to make blacks pay themselves. So…
Does a person who is half black and half white pay half as much in taxes, or get half as much in reparations?
Michael Jackson is darn near white already. Do he have to pay?
If you are descended from slaves who were owned by black people, how much do you get, and who pays?
If some of your ancestors owned slaves and some were slaves, how much do you get and who pays? Muhammed Ali, for instance, is descended from Henry Clay, a white guy who owned slaves. Does Ali pay in or get paid out?
Do Chinese-Americans have to pay the tax? Do they get anything for their ancestors being forced to work as coolies? Who pays? Blacks benefitted from their work as much as whites, so do blacks pay?
Do people who are descended from freed slaves get less than those whose ancestors were enslaved all the way up to the Civil War?
The Arabs were heavily involved in kidnapping slaves in Africa for export. So were lots of black rulers. Do Muslim blacks or the descendents of black kings of Africa pay more, less, or what?
My wife and I are white; my children are Asian (both adopted from South Korea). Do my children have to pay even though they (and their genetic ancestors) never had any involvement with slavery?
My grandparents came from Germany, and there is no tradition of black slavery in Germany. Do I owe Jewish people anything? Louis Farrakhan and Khalid Muhammed accuse Jews of being behind the slave trade. Do Jews pay reparations?
Can we deduct the cost of anti-poverty programs from our reparations, since much of the purpose of these programs were aimed at reversing the effects of racism and discrimination?
Can we allow for the greater earnings potential of blacks in America over blacks in Africa to offset some of the cost of these reparations?
Do we pay descendents of black people who immigrated to America after the end of slavery? Why?
Yeah, but what you’re missing is that the people responsible are LONG DEAD! Nobody alive now has ever been enslaved, and nobody alive now has ever owned slaves (you know what I mean). I should not be held accountable for what my ancestors did or did not do.
As for Jews suing Germany, I also disagree with that, but for different reasons. I approve of the Swiss banks having to make reparations to surviving Jews and their children, because people directly affected by it still live. And people responsible for it are still benefitting directly from the assets stolen from the Jews. But as for suing the German government, well, the current government is neither responsible for, nor benefitting from, the atrocities carried out against the Jewish people.
So no, you shouldn’t be able to sue them.
And no, Blacks shouldn’t be able to sue the US for compensation. It’s over. LET IT F#&!@G END*. The only thing that will come of it if these suits are filed against the US is more racial tension and resentment, as if we don’t have enough already.
And adding to Shodan’s questions: Do Black people descended from African tribes that captured and sold rival tribesmen to European slavers have to pay?
Do I have to pay? Why should I? My ancestors lived in Mexico and California. Does that mean I get to sue the government of Spain for the treasure that was plundered, women who were raped, people who were enslaved, and widespread death due to diseases?
Slavery was perpetrated by private individuals and the states, not the Federal government of the US. In fact, the Federal government has been the blacks’ best friend almost from the beginning. It outlawed the importation of slaves as early as 1807, it fought the Civil War (hel-loo), it tried to implement reconstruction and eventually did implement civil rights legislation. If blacks want to sue individual Southern states or estates, let 'em try.