Indentured servitude. Involuntary servitude. Hmmm. Yup, those two things are the same.
I didn’t say that they were thae same. Let me clarify.
let’s say that injustice is measured on a scale of 1-10. slavery was a 9. Indendtured servitude was a 5. why would we say that an injustice of 9 gets paid, but a five does not?
This is not a black or whitee issue. Injustice lays on a continuum. Perhaps the descendants of indentured servvants goet paid $150 while slave anscestors get $400.
Just because the degree of a certain wrong is less than that of a more egregious wrong does not mean that it is not compensable.
Is the real problem race?
No, let me clarify. How in the world is indentured servitude a 5 on the Great Scale O’ Injustice?? Indentured servants were contracted, which implies consent–however many kids there might have been who, a few years in, decided they didn’t want to do it anymore. Oh, and indentured servitude was generally for a fixed period of time. That means you became a free man afterwards. All in all, I think it’s a pretty far stretch–and fairly disingenuous–to talk about the “injustice” of indenturement.
Apparently so. Let’s compare the proportion of free whites in the American colonies to the proportion of free blacks, shall we?
And to throw in a few other points:
Indentured servants not only were ‘freed’ after a certain period of time, but were usually given starting money and/or land by the person who they contracted to as part of that contract.
Indentured servants’ wives and children were not automatically indentured servants.
Indentured servants had all of the same rights as free citizens in terms of voting, speech, etc.
Indentured servants, in exchange for their servitude, were given a basic education and taught a skill. It was illegal in most slave states to teach a slave to read, and few slaves learned any skills (other than “hide from the master” and “beg for my life”).
If they had a legal leg to stand on you’d think some group would have already sued for compensation. I haven’t even heard of anyone attempting to sue. Granted it isn’t like I keep my eye on these things. So do they have a leg to stand on? If so why has no suit been filed?
Marc
I agree, it is mainly an argument involving race.
In general, I have read some very valid and logical points thus far; however, many of them only argue on tangents and side issues, giving the author a false sense of satisfaction. The point I would like to hear more on is whether or not the group under question (assuming that we can determine who these people really should be) deserve to be compensated for what was done to their ancestors. Although this may seem like a vague question with many “what if”'s and “if them, why not…”'s, it really isn’t.
For example, is there definite evidence that Africans and African Americans would be in a better situation if slavery had not existed? Now before everyone starts taking stabs at me, I’m not suggesting anything. I only ask because it seems the logical place to start and many people take this for granted.
The thing is, and this may be a slippery slope, but, well, if we did something like this, it may open the flood gates and then others will want to sue:
For example-my ancestors were serfs, which was only one step above slavery. My ancestors were Irish. Look at what the Irish suffered under the British.
And if slavery was bad in this country, it was even worse down in Latin America. About 95% of the Native American population was totally wiped out by the Spanish Conquistadors. (sp?)
The point I’m trying to make is that blacks are not the only oppressed ones in the world, unfortunately. Yes, they are still repressed, but why not work on the stuff that’s going on TODAY, not back then.
I’d also like to point out that 100 years ago, I would most certainly NOT be considered white. I’m Irish/German/Polish/Hungarian/Slovak.
Slavs, Hungarians and the Irish were not “pure white”, especially Slavs. In fact, the word SLAVE comes from SLAV.
In a great many cases, indentured servitude isn’t as voluntary as most people think. Many were convicts sold into servitude in the colonies for crimes such as stealing to feed their families or not having enough money to pay their debts. Banishment to America was dreaded, and convicts begged to be branded or whipped rather than sold into servitude, which was considered second only to the death penalty as a form of punishment. Many others were simply kidnapped right off the streets. The modern term “kidnapping” comes from “kid nabbing,” the lovely custom of hiring thugs to steal children right off the streets of poor neighborhoods and selling them in the colonies as indentured servants. On arrival in America, many were bought by brokers, chained together in a coffle, and led around the countryside as the broker sold them one by one to the landowners he passed. At auctions (yes, they were auctioned just like the slaves) families were often broken up, never to see each other for years, if ever. Due to the inhumane conditions many servants suffered, many died before their terms of servitude were up, and terms were often extended for trivial offenses or even entirely imaginary ones based on nothing but their master’s accusation. Beatings were common, and killing an indentured servant seldom resulted in a substantial penalty. (One woman who beat a servant to death was merely fined three hogsheads of tobacco.) More often, the master got off scot free. The runaway problem in one colony was so bad that the penalty for running away was hanging. One colony extended the term of servitude one year for every week the runaway had been at large. In the Caribbean, fully 80% of indentured servants died before their terms were up, many in the first twelve months after their arrival. Indentured servants were cheap, and masters had little incentive to treat them decently, so many were simply used up and thrown away.
I could go on and on and on. The simple truth is that indentured servitude was quite horrible.
Polecat: All valid points, though you understate the degree to which indenturement was a legitimate means by which people in the colonies learned a trade. I’m simply saying that in the litany of injustices perpetrated in or by the United States, indentured service ranks far, far, far down the list.
Imho the people who want reparations for blacks are bigots, because they are discriminating based on color and that makes them racist. Do the people who think the blacks need a helping hand are really inferior? Because I can’t see any other reason for it.
If we go back into the past of any culture we could find some kind of injustice done. We cannot continue to dwell on the past. Everyone is worried of the racist problems that are facing us today. Yet, no one will move on and think of the future for the next generation. The injustice that has happened in the past is just that, it is the past. When we realize that only then can we move on . You cannot punish anyone for a crime that their grandparent’s commited.
As far as the OP goes, here’s the bottom line for me: I don’t care if it comes under the aegis of reparations or not, but the urban infrastructure does need to be revitalized, urban education does need to become a national priority, and the systemic disparities between quality of life indicators of American blacks and whites need to be addressed–and quickly. I don’t care why we do it, so long as we do it.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Gadarene *
**Polecat: All valid points, though you understate the degree to which indenturement was a legitimate means by which people in the colonies learned a trade. I’m simply saying that in the litany of injustices perpetrated in or by the United States, indentured service ranks far, far, far down the list. **[/QUOTE
If anything, the supposed benefits of indentured servitude have been much exaggerated. If we’re going to recite a “litany of injustices,” then it is only fair and right to point out that the very first victims, who suffered as much as any black slave, were the poor whites of Britain. Their suffering ought not to be minimized or ignored.
My point was not the indentured servitude necesarrily ranks as a 5 on a scale of 10. If we are to repay those to whom an injustice was done, we have to pay ALL to whom an injustice was done regardless of degree. To pay only blacks is, intrinsicly, racist. Wrongs were done to whites as well. If you are going to pay reparations, you have to pay them to all.
Personally, I am still waiting for the check from the Russians who stole my families land and raped my anscestors.
“Do the people who think the blacks need a helping hand are really inferior? Because I can’t see any other reason for it.”
I don’t think that people are suggesting that African Americans are inferior, only that their situation in this country as a people may be below average, due to (yes, you guessed it) slavery.
Fantastic. This is probably for another thread. How would you go about doing it?
Marc
“I don’t care if it comes under the aegis of reparations or not, but the urban infrastructure does need to be revitalized, urban education does need to become a national priority, and the systemic disparities between quality of life indicators of American blacks and whites need to be addressed–and quickly. I don’t care why we do it, so long as we do it.”
Now that is just unfair and, for the lack of a better word, whinny. Has it ever occured to you that the quality of life of a person maybe a direct result of that person, and even more so, that person’s parents? Where is the attitude that if I’m not happy where I am, I’ll do all I can to change that…and more importantly, set up a better starting point for my kids, so hopefully, they can have a better life than I did. Where is this mentality that you usually find in strong families and successful people? If you want to blame or credit anyone with your current position in life, first check out what your parents have done.
I find it strange how people are so quick to blame slavery for the current condition of blacks in America. Don’t get me wrong, I’m definitly not saying slavery wasn’t horrific, but many other people have had harder lives than the current descendents of those enslaved. I look at other foreigners, like some asians for example, who immigrate with no money, no contacts, and cannot even speak the language. These people manage to put themselves through school, raise families, and lead happy lives. They start off living in poor areas also, yet why do they succeed? Or even if they didn’t, many of the second generation does?
I would first take out “white” and “black” and replace it with “rich” and “poor”. I mean from the thread you were talking about.
Slavery took place over a period of about 350 years. Does that mean we get 350 years to make the reparations payments?