Slut Shaming

[Acsenray]

@Nars_Glinley

Of course there’s no excuse for raping someone. No one has said that there is. However, a woman can increase or decrease the probability of becoming the victim of violence by her actions. Pointing this out is not slut shaming.

Whether or not that’s true (and most of the time it’s not), that’s the private business of the women involved. It’s not a valid subject of public concern.

What is of public concern is how can society be changed so that women have the same degree of freedom as men to go where they want, when they want, with or without whomever they want, wearing or not wearing what they want, and in whatever state of intoxication they want with no more risk of suffering misadventure than a man. And if they do suffer from the bad behavior of another person to have the public and authorities take them just as seriously as they would a man and not advise them that it’s their own fault.

[HurricaneDitka]

@Acsenray

Whether or not that’s true (and most of the time it’s not), that’s the private business of the women involved. It’s not a valid subject of public concern.

What is of public concern is how can society be changed so that women have the same degree of freedom as men to go where they want, when they want, with or without whomever they want, wearing or not wearing what they want, and in whatever state of intoxication they want with no more risk of suffering misadventure than a man. And if they do suffer from the bad behavior of another person to have the public and authorities take them just as seriously as they would a man and not advise them that it’s their own fault.

I guess I don’t understand how you’re defining “valid subject of public concern”. Life’s full of risks, what’s wrong with discussing / acknowledging them? Regardless of the utopian vision you painted above, we’re no closer to that point, than we are to me being able to wander around bad neighborhoods in Washington, DC after dark, flashing cash, and avoiding getting mugged.

[Acsenray]

Because a stranger’s legal, personal choices aren’t your business, especially when pointing them out amounts to nothing more than “It was your fault you got raped.”

And my comment has nothing to do with “utopia.” It has to do with the purpose of public policy.

Implicit in all these conversations is that there’s some kind of universal, unchanging truth about how society works and that we can do nothing about it. Clearly that’s untrue, because over the centuries of human civilization we have managed to make human society progressively safer—specifically in terms of the risks people face from other people. So it’s not some unreachable utopian ideal to talk about making things better than they are now.

So far as “flashing cash” goes, if men and women suffer equal risks in that respect then that’s a different issue.

[Acsenray]

And of course the larger issue is that it distracts from the real circumstances of rape.

Most rapes are not of scantily dressed women by shady strangers in a dark alley in a bad neighborhood. Mist rapes are by family members and other oniwn people who.are otherwise deemed trustworthy.

Focusing on a woman’s safety choices derails that actual issues and distracts from the actual risks.

[Nava]

@IvoryTowerDenizen

No clue. But women have always been taught to judge ourselves harshly.

In every single aspect of our existence.

[Dangerosa]

@Nars_Glinley

Of course there’s no excuse for raping someone. No one has said that there is. However, a woman can increase or decrease the probability of becoming the victim of violence by her actions. Pointing this out is not slut shaming.

Here is the issue with #safetytipsforladies They are patronizing and obvious. They are like walking up to someone who is obese and saying “you would be healthier if you lost weight.” Do people really think women haven’t heard the advice before?

And yet for all the obviousness - your chances of getting raped by a stranger when a short skirt was involved is VERY VERY LOW. Better advice is don’t date. Your chances of getting raped because you were out on a date with some asshole who doesn’t understand no are much higher than getting raped because you showed some cleavage. Even better, don’t spend time with men at all. Woman on woman rape is very rare.

[DrFidelius]

“He went to the bar wearing a gym tee shirt, and the more he drank the more he challenged other patrons to arm wresting contests. He got them all riled up with sports talk. And then everyone acts all surprised when he passes out and somebody breaks his arm. he had been asking for it all evening.”

[Fotheringay-Phipps]

@IvoryTowerDenizen

We can argue whether a woman who made no vow or commitment to the wife should bear any blame. That’s predicated on the outmoded idea that men get lured and simply can’t say no to sexual desire.

Consider this:

We can argue whether a [drug dealer] who made no vow or commitment to [anyone] should bear any blame. That’s predicated on the outmoded idea that people get lured and simply can’t say no to [drug] desire.

Buy it?

However the issue is not if the other woman should take some of the blame. The issue is that women see her as bearing the bulk of the blame due to slut shaming ideas.

When a woman strays she’s at fault. She’s cuckolded him. When a man strays the woman is still at fault. She’s the home wrecker.

I don’t think society differentiates between men and women in this regard.

The reason wronged spouses are more inclined to blame the interloper over their spouse is generally because they’re hoping to preserve their relationship with their spouse. This precludes them from viewing the spouse as someone who is/was actively looking to cheat on them. Putting the onus on the other party allows them to preserve the notion that once that outside influence is removed the relationship can thrive.

[clairobscur]

@Dangerosa

Because one is you deciding you are going to be “tacky” according to someone else’s standards and wear a micro mini to church and the other is the refusal to acknowledge that people will judge you for it - or stating they are wrong when they do.

Go ahead and do it. Don’t be surprised when the congregation gives you the fish eye.

To take this away from slut shaming - you want to have swastikas tattooed on your knuckles - go for it. Don’t be shocked when your employment prospects are limited. At least red lipstick and the micromini can be changed easily.

We shouldn’t slut shame, but we should also acknowledge that people respond to the choices we make in how we present ourselves. One is the adherence to an ideal, the other the pragmatic acknowledgement of reality.

But then, my question stands : what’s the difference? Shouldn’t you have the same attitude wrt people judging the microkini inapropriate in a church, and wrt people judging the microkini inapropriate in an high school?

Or is it exactly what you said?

[clairobscur]

@Fotheringay-Phipps

The reason wronged spouses are more inclined to blame the interloper over their spouse is generally because they’re hoping to preserve their relationship with their spouse. This precludes them from viewing the spouse as someone who is/was actively looking to cheat on them. Putting the onus on the other party allows them to preserve the notion that once that outside influence is removed the relationship can thrive.

This. Not only it isn’t limited to women, but IME, on whom the cheated party tends to put the blame is mostly dependant on whether they want to save the relationship or not. Still enamoured of your partner : it’s all the fault of the other man/woman. Don’t want to have anything to do anymore with your partner : it’s all his/her fault.
This has nothing to do with “slut shaming”. It’s not like men who sleep with maried women typically get a round of applause.

[Dangerosa]

@clairobscur

But then, my question stands : what’s the difference? Shouldn’t you have the same attitude wrt people judging the microkini inapropriate in a church, and wrt people judging the microkini inapropriate in an high school?

Or is it exactly what you said?

Because when you wear a micromini to school, you get sent home and denied an education. That’s not judging, that’s removing someone’s right.

And when they start wearing bikini’s to school, we will deal with that. Right now, they get sent home for showing shoulders and wearing leggings.

[amarinth]

@up_the_junction

White girls, more middle class at least, don’t have any sexual inclinations until at least 16, and then it’s only with that special boy - unless they have Latino and/or Black friends and mom is out of sight.

I missed this earlier. That statement is both wrong and racist.

[Dangerosa]

@amarinth

I missed this earlier. That statement is both wrong and racist.

As the mother of a sixteen year old who ran a girl scout troop of middle class white girls into their teens, its hilarious. I swear, one girl was humping my furniture by nine. Boy crazy doesn’t cover it.

(My own daughter is now seventeen and still has no sexual inclinations, but she’s identified as asexual for a few years now. So for a few years I’ve gotten to hear how sex crazy and boy crazy her friends are.)

[Velocity]

@up_the_junction

White girls, more middle class at least, don’t have any sexual inclinations until at least 16

Are you claiming that white people are less horny than people of other races, due to being white? :dubious:

[Fotheringay-Phipps]

@amarinth

I missed this earlier. That statement is both wrong and racist.

Not to defend UTJ’s specific assertion, but the notion that black girls enter puberty earlier than white girls is very well established.

Random cite

[Dangerosa]

@Fotheringay-Phipps

Not to defend UTJ’s specific assertion, but the notion that black girls enter puberty earlier than white girls is very well established.

Random cite

Which is one of the reasons institutionalized slut shaming through school dress codes affects them disproportionately.

But puberty has nothing to do with the statement that Latinos and Blacks are much more comfortable “doing their thing” Nor why white sexual inclinations would be tied to class (middle class girls don’t have them).

[Fotheringay-Phipps]

@Dangerosa

But puberty has nothing to do with the statement that Latinos and Blacks are much more comfortable “doing their thing”

I think it’s related. Because if members of a culture have sexual urges at younger ages, then that culture could reflect that in making sexual expression culturally acceptable at younger ages.

Again this is not to support the specific assertions of UTJ (which seem rather extreme).

[Dangerosa]

@Fotheringay-Phipps

I think it’s related. Because if members of a culture have sexual urges at younger ages, then that culture could reflect that in making sexual expression culturally acceptable at younger ages.

Again this is not to support the specific assertions of UTJ (which seem rather extreme).

I’d like to see a cite for that. What is meant by “sexually expressive?” We’ve all seen young white girls wearing a lot of makeup and “suggestive” clothing for beauty pageants (unless you can completely ignore Honey Boo Boo, Toddlers and Tiaras or Jon Benet Ramsey) - how is that different that the “culturally appropriate sexual expression” of Black or Latino culture. If you’ve had a young daughter in dance - you’ll see “suggestive” moves taught in the white suburbs.

In short, I’m not buying it.

[Fotheringay-Phipps]

I’m not familiar with any cites, and it’s theoretically possible that it’s not true. That’s not my claim.

You said that “puberty has nothing to do with the statement that Latinos and Blacks are much more comfortable “doing their thing””, and I pointed out that these things are in fact related. That’s all.

[Dangerosa]

Perhaps the issue we have is a different definition of what Latinos and Blacks are doing when they are “doing their thing” I would assume that was existing - which has little to do with when they hit puberty.