Okay. I agree.
For a bit there it seemed like your position was that a nation’s right to self defense extended so as to extinguish a rival nation’s right to self determination. Glad to clear that up.
~Max
I believe you’re trying to get me to say no so that you can then ask me why Israel has the right to deprive Gaza of self-determination.
If that is not your intent then I apologize.
If it is, then the only answer I can give you is that war in and of itself is a morally neutral act and what matters to the history books is who wins - if one of Israel’s enemies defeated it some day, their historians would write about how Israel was evil and deserved to fall, and it was a just and glorious war that brought it about. I would also argue that Gaza already lacks self-determination as long as Hamas is in control and the best hope in the long run for a free democratic Gaza is an Israeli victory.
Well, we cross-posted and I have to retract my moment of clarity.
Do you or do you not think Israel should deprive Gaza of self-determination, and do you or do you not think other nations hostile to Israel should deprive Israel of its self-determination, and if your opinions are not the same in both circumstances, why the difference?
I don’t want a post-hoc analysis, I want your opinion before-the-fact. Both the Israeli people and the Gazan people exist as of present.
~Max
I would prefer that neither happen. What I want is for Hamas to be removed from power so that a democratic government can be established in Gaza, and I want the world to take in Palestinian refugees who’d rather try their luck elsewhere.
What exactly do you mean by “the ones who’d rather try their luck elsewhere”? Are you referring to Palistinians who don’t want to live in the future hypothetical democratic government? Or the ones who don’t want to live in Gaza right now during IDF operations?
Also, do you think Hamas is (not should/shouldn’t be, but is) the current embodiment of Gazan self-determination?
~Max
Yes to both. If Palestinians want out of Gaza then the US should be helping make that happen.
No more than the Nazis were the embodiment of German self-determination, or thr Kim regime of North Koreans. The average Gazan has no say over their government or their fate in life and that is not acceptable. Any cessation of hostilities where Hamas remains in power is a loss for both Israel and the Gazan people.
For the sake of argument, will you assume the average Gazan does in fact support Hamas? And wants to stay in Gaza (at least in the immediate term)? Does that change your position in any way?
~Max
According to some polling, this is true, and I find it deeply troubling. Then again, the average Gazan is under 18 - they’ve never known anything other than Hamas rule and never received any education beyond Hamas propaganda. Put a Gazan in Times Square and they’d probably react much the same as a North Korean peasant who escapes to the south. In the long run I believe that if exposed to a better life it will not be impossible to deradicalize them.
I would prefer nobody be forced to leave their homeland.
Examine polls in Nazi Germany and you’ll find some evidence of public support for Hitler’s regime as well. Democracy is not enough to prevent oppression, and oppression is not incompatible with nationalist fervor.
So for the sake of argument we have a nation that is itself hostile to Israel. The question is not about whether you prefer nobody be forced to leave their homeland. Nobody wants that. The question is whether you prefer it over other alternatives, such as leaving Hamas in power.
And there are more followup questions if you would rather force a migration, since many (myself included) think it is impossible for Israel to expel Gazans without committing genocide.
~Max
True, but that support did not outlive the man and Nazism has been a fringe philosophy in Germany ever since. I am hopeful that the same can be achieved once Hamas has been defeated.
If there is no way to defeat Hamas without eradicating the Gazans, then it would be better for Israel to wall off the border, withdraw their forces, and ignore them.
…just for the record, because EVERYONE posting in this thread is so fucking behind what is happening on the ground right now, NOBODY can flee Gaza right now.
They can’t flee because Israel (NOT Egypt) have taken over the Rafah crossing, shut the borders, and not letting anyone in or out. That means nobody can escape, even if they wanted too, even if Egypt said, “yeah, we will take you.”
And not only can nobody flee, Almost NOTHING CAN GET IN. No food. No water. No medical supplies. No fuel. And its been like that for a week. Israel claims they let in a limited amount of fuel a few hours ago. But it is a mere fraction of what is needed on the ground.
From the last Flash Update:
As bad as this “war” has been so far, things on the ground right now are worse than they ever have been.
You aren’t hearing about it because Israel killed most of the journalists. They’ve destroyed most of the infrastructure. So nobody here knows that Israel have again ordered that everyone must “leave the north.” And they’ve ordered that people must “leave east Rafah”, lest they get bombed. And they are bombing them with impunity. They aren’t “targeting Hamas.” Because Israel don’t fucking know or care if someone is Hamas or not.
And they aren’t trying to rescue the hostages. Because they don’t fucking care about the hostages. In the seven months since the start of the war the IDF have killed more hostages than they’ve rescued.
The last time I posted here there were 10 partially functional hospitals. Now there are only five. And every single one of these barely functioning, under-staffed, under-resourced hospitals are under serious threat of closing due to a lack of fuel and basic supplies due to the closing of the border.
I cannot stress how really fucking bad things are on the ground in Gaza right now. And it’s doubtful that anything will get any better. This won’t stop once they’ve cleared Eastern Rafah. They are using AI to designate targets. Grid systems to shuffle people from one-block-to-another. Remote-controlled quadcopters to menace and shoot people. Its a dystopian hell-hole where there is no escape.
Over on the West Bank:
From CNN:
This is a genocide. Not just of Gaza. And nobody will stop it. Not the US, where both Democrats and Republicans in power largely are cheering it on. Not the EU. Not my country.
And in a sense: Smapti is correct. The best possible outcome for Palestinians will be for the rest of the world to open their borders and take in as many of them in as they can.
Because there are only three possible outcomes here IMHO: Palestinians manage to get out of Gaza, they won’t get out and will live under brutal occupation for the rest of their lives, or they die. The history books will recognize what this is. Ethnic cleansing. And we all should be ashamed for allowing this to happen.
Shame on you.
Isn’t that one of the five actions considered by the UN to be genocide?
I thank you for the clarification. Unless I’m misremembering our last discussion, you believe Israel can rid Gaza of extremist ideology following a military victory over Hamas. I disagree but we need not get into that.
The only point remaining is whether Israel is justified in going so far as to destroy Hamas unilaterally instead of negotiating a ceasefire, assuming for the sake of argument that Hamas is the present embodiment of Gazan self-determination. Mind you I personally see self defence as the only potential justification for Israel in this conflict, and by its nature that must be limited to absolute necessity and immediate threats - not preventative war. I will also assume for the sake of argument that destruction of Hamas is feasible without genocide. It seems to me, based on your posts, that you support Israel taking such action; yet, you do not support other countries like Iran destroying Israel. At surface, this appears to be a double standard, so I wonder what other assumption I am making that you aren’t, or vice versa.
~Max
One has to look at what would in the long run be the better outcome for the greatest number of people.
Israel defeating Hamas would mean safety for the Israeli people, freedom from Hamas oppression for the Gazans, and a chance at lasting peace in the region. Iran defeating Israel would only rob more people of self-determination (which I assert can only be attained within the framework of a functioning liberal democracy), it would almost certainly result in genocide against the Jews, and it would empower Islamist fanatics to seek greater hegemony over the world.
Umm, Israel is not the Jews and if there’s a real threat of genocide in Israel by Iran then why aren’t the Israelis fleeing Israel?
See the logical implications of your position yet?
OK, smart guy, you tell me what Iran would do to Israeli Jews if they somehow defeated Israel.
It’s not gonna be linking hands with them and singing kumbaya, I can tell you that.
Fuckwit? Israeli Jews are not the Jews and if you meant Iran defeating Israel would almost certainly result in genocide against the Israeli Jews then that’s what you should have fucking typed.
Au contraire, I see the defeat of Hamas as triggering an immediate and major reprisal by sister groups like Hezbollah and a rising level of extremism in the West Bank, potentially drawing state level actors like Jordan or Iran into direct conflict. I would expect more fronts to open up against Israel during the time period Israel needs to devote significant resources to stabilize the Gazan power vacuum. I expect the U.S. and the U.K. to be called upon to stand with Israel against the world, and all other international powers of note to show reluctance to support Israel. I expect the United States Republican party to recieve a significant boost in the coming election cycle which may lead to further U.S. support to Israel in the short term, but destabilizes other U.S. interests notably in Europe (viz. Russia) and Asia (viz. China).
Even waving all of this aside, I don’t personally think the ends justify the means. I don’t appreciate those arguments in the general case. We assumed Hamas enjoys the average Gazan’s support, thus disclaiming any pretense of a Gazan war of liberation. So too is Iran prohibited from “liberating” the Israeli people from their “tyrannical” government. You can make assumptions about Iran being likely to commit genocide to destroy Israel, and alternative endgames being infeasable, but Iran is going to assume Israel must commit genocide to destroy Hamas. We threw both arguments out together.
I prefer to stick to the rule that there are no circumstances where one nation is justified in unilaterally denying another’s self-determination. This has the unfortunate side effect of meaning Israel should just put up with persistent threats but it also means Jordan and Iran and Saudi Arabia should just put up with Israel. It makes it wrong for Israel to try and destroy Hamas but it also makes it wrong when Hamas tries to destroy Israel, and so there is a consistency in my approach which, so far as I can tell, is lacking in yours. No, Hamas does not play by my rules. Nor does the UN step in as I would prefer. But that doesn’t exempt Israel from what I think it should/shouldn’t do, IMHO.
I’ve said my fill, you may have the last word if you wish.
~Max
Sorry, I assumed readers here were capable of discerning from context that when I was talking about the defeat of Israel resulting in Jewish genocide I meant genocide against Israeli Jews. Excuse me while I write to every Holocaust scholar and tell them they need to explain that Jews living in New Zealand were in no danger from Hitler.