Really, I think the reason so many non-smokers think all smokers are rude is quite obvious. Same for smokers who think non-smokers are crusading jerks.
I don’t smoke where it is likely to bother other people. If I’m smoking outside, I try to be away from other people who aren’t smoking. If I’m at an outside table with other people, I’ll ask them if it’s ok to smoke, and if I notice smoke drifting to someone at another table, I’ll move or ask if they’re bothered.
If someone were to ask me not to smoke around them, I would certainly comply, but I don’t think it has ever happened. Polite smokers, by and large, don’t bother other people to begin with. Certainly, there are times when I might not notice that someone is being bothered, but they are rare.
OTOH, there are lots and lots of people, both smokers and non-smokers, who are jerks. You shouldn’t be surprised if someone who is smoking in an inappropriate place (legal or not) turns out to be a jerk. In fact, I would take it as read.
Likewise, although it has never happened, if someone were to confront me about my smoking, it would either be one of the rare situations where I was bothering someone unawares, or it would be a crusading, non-smoking jerk. Both are pretty unlikely, but I imagine people who smoke more than I, live in more populous places, or have smoked for longer might have run into a jerk or twenty.
I think that Alan Smithee makes a good argument. I’ve known a few polite smokers, and they do try to make sure that they’re not bothering anyone when they smoke. I’ve never had to ask one of these polite smokers to move away from me, as they don’t light up around me without asking in the first place.
The problem, of course, is that the smokers who most stick out in my mind are the ones who plop themselves down beside me and light up, and then get offended when I ask them to move or move myself.
I can only suppose that the smoker did not reply because he was contemplating stabbing you in the throat. Lucky the store owner jumped in with the judiciously placed “just trying to create a fuss” comment.
I can’t be arsed to do a whole cut-and-paste with your posts right now, so I’ll just say this:
First, nothing that I said proves your point about smokers reacting rudely when being asked to either extinguish their cigarettes or move elsewhere to smoke. My point was that smokers, when smoking outside in the open air, shouldn’t feel, or be, compelled to comply with the request of non-smokers who have the lion’s share of places to go if they don’t want to deal with cigarette smoke. Period.
Secondly, if you didn’t want people to assume that you didn’t want smokers to smoke in public, open air, places where you might find yourself, and if you didn’t want to be challenged on that point, then you shouldn’t have brought it up in post #57. I mean, really, how the fuck else do you expect smokers, who have an ever-decreasing number of places where we can smoke, to react when someone like you “requests” that we don’t smoke in your presence? Next thing, folks like you will be “requesting” that we don’t smoke in our own backyards because you can smell the smoke while in your adjoining backyard. I’m sure you’ll think this is hyperbole on my part, but from what you’ve said so far (and from what militant non-smokers have, at the very least, implied in other threads), I don’t think it is.
And, Lynn Bodoni? Believe it or not, I completely understand your point about conterminous smoking and non-smoking areas inside of restaurants (which is one reason why I’m not up in arms about smoking being banned in restaurents), but I have a question for you: Why, if you happened to find yourself in a place that **does not explicitly ban smoking and, therefore, could be reasonably presumed to allow it ** (and, given the fact that you have so many more options than I do), would you even endeavor to deny someone the right/pleasure/whatever to smoke? Are you free to remove yourself in such a situation? Sure. And while you might be free to ask me not to smoke in such a situation, don’t expect me to be all sunshine and kittens when you ask me not to smoke *in a public place * where I am not prohibited from doing so. And while I can’t speak for all smokers, the only reason that I might think negatively of you if you moved in order to avoid my smoke would be if you made a production of doing that annyoing hand-waving-cough-cough thing that so many non-smokers do while you removed yourself.
Look, I don’t want to come off as militant, but I can’t stand this attitude that so many non-smokers seem to have that **everywhere ** where they find themselves should, if not by law, then by courtesy, given, again, the overwhelming number of options you guys have, be a non-smoking area. Can you–and not you, Lynn, if you don’t feel this way, but other non-smokers–really not see how that is tantamount to **unreasonably ** imposing your values/wants/needs on someone else?
In the most recent instance, I was out after midnight and needed to eat something. Not WANTED, but NEEDED to eat something (I’m diabetic). The Denny’s and IHOPs all have smoking sections, and after about 10 PM they tend to close down most of the restaurant and put the smoking and nonsmoking sections right next to each other. I went into an IHOP, explained to the hostess that I wanted a nonsmoking table, and was seated. No one was smoking in the restaurant at that time, so I didn’t know where the smoking section was. Minutes after I got my food, the hostess sat down…and lit up. I hurriedly picked up my food and silverware and moved to a table in the closed section. Are you happy with my response to that situation? I was tired, I wasn’t looking for a confruntation, my blood sugar was low (which can cause any number of inappropriate responses), I just wanted to eat something. And breathe while I ate it.
I’m a diabetic, too, so I totally sympathize. (And yes, I know–I should **definitely ** not be smoking. I’m working on it, I’m working on it.) Low blood sugar **really ** isn’t a good feeling.
And no, I certainly can’t fault you for your response in this instance. If the hostess–to whom you’d already voiced your desire for a non-smoking table-- sat near you (which I’m assuming she did) and smoked, then that was very uncool of her. You didn’t say in your post, so I’m curious: Did you explain to her your reasons for wanting a non-smoking table. i.e., the possibility of a migraine and the very real likelihood of an asthma attack?
I ask because I’d like to think that most people, knowing about the real and immediate risks to you, would conduct themselves accordingly. (Though I reckon that there are those who might say, well, fine, you’re a diabetic and you need to eat something, so why not go somewhere else? Or why not keep something with you, e.g., sugar pills, etc., that you can consume in a low blood surgar emergency?)
OTOH (there’s always another hand, isn’t there?), I’d be wary of **everyone ** claiming risk of an asthma attack if they inhale cigarette smoke **if they willingly, absent any immediate health need (such as your diabetes), ** patronize an establishment that allows smoking.
I guess my concern is this: Where does it end? How long before people are banned from wearing, say, to their jobs, perfumes, body oils, and colognes because someone is allergic, or whatever? How long before, say, ballparks stop selling peanuts because someone has a peanut allergy? How long before someone lobbies for, or proposes, legislation that would prevent me from smoking in my backyard (which I don’t have now, but hope to have someday) because the next-door neighbor is affected by the smoke?
Please don’t get me wrong. It’s not that I don’t care about people’s very real health needs. It’s just that it’s not difficult for me to imagine a day when we’ll be having arguments about just how “sterile” we all have to be so as to not offend anyone’s sensibilities or in some other way expose people to some kind of health risk. And that’s a big part of what I think is what makes so many smokers wary of the militantly anti-smoking contigent.
Well, I’m certainly not going to assume that all outdoors is a “non-smoking” area. That wouldn’t make sense. So until “They” hang signs saying that smoking is forbidden, then yes, I’m going to consider that all of the outdoors is still available for smoking. I will try to keep my distance from people who are not smoking and I hope they will do the same.
I think that younger non-smokers don’t realize how much turf we have given up (and rightly so). My first job was working for a newspaper. There were fifteen women working in one room with no windows. About ten of us smoked. I don’t ever recall the other four or five complaining. That was just the way things were back then. (Obviously, some folks somewhere began to complain!)
lowbrass, what’s on a smoker’s mind as they are lighting up is not a matter of your opinion. You can’t really know what they are thinking and feeling. If you think that people will stab you when you ask them to turn down the radio, your view of other people may be a little on the negative side. I doubt that there is a bit of difference in the courtesy of smokers and non-smokers. Can you really generalize about so many millions of people with any accuracy?
I don’t think Lynn should have had to explain anything to her. Requesting a non-smoking table should have said it all. Why Lynn was there and why she wanted non-smoking is none of her business. That Hostess was a real twit and it’s people like her that give the rest of us a bad name. Would it really have been so hard for the hostess to pop over to the closed section to smoke? As far as I’m concerned, Lynn, you did the right thing.
For the record, even though I (and most of my friends) smoke, we usually sat in the non smoking section when we ate out. There is something so gross about a cloud around your head while you are trying to enjoy a meal. I just really wish the smoking ban didn’t extend to bars and coffee shops.
No disagreement here about what **Lynn ** did. The point I was trying to make is this: Given the proximity of the smoking and non-smoking sections in this restaurant–something that **Lynn ** admitted she was aware of, even though no one was smoking at the time she was seated–it *might * have served her better if she’d explained to the hostess **exactly ** why she desired a non-smoking area. IOW, if the hostess had known about the potential effects on Lynn, she *might * not have smoked a cigarette where **Lynn ** would’ve been affected by it.
And I agree: I think it sucks that these bans have been extended to bars across the board. I still think that bar owners should’ve been allowed to decide for themselves whether or not they would allow smoking. It’ll be interesting to see what happens as more and more people who live near bars are exposed to the noise and, perhaps, smoke, from people who’ve been forced to congregate outside. Again, where does it end?
I don’t know about you, but when I’m experiencing a blood sugar crash, I don’t want to do any more talking than strictly necessary. I was at the “sweating and vision growing black” stage, and while I’d taken my sugar pills, I was waiting for them to kick in. I probably should have noted in my other post that the hostess seated herself at the table closest to me, presumably because it was the table closest to the door. There were other tables that she could have seated me that were not so close to the smoking section. There were other tables in the smoking section for her. I don’t think she was being deliberately malicious, but I do think that she just didn’t realize, or care, that she was far too close to the nonsmoking section. If I’d felt better, I would have confronted her and asked for the general manager’s name. However, I just wanted to recover from my low blood sugar, get home, and go to bed.
I gave some examples where it might not be possible to move away from the smoker. And honestly, if I were a smoker, rather than lighting up, blowing smoke in someone’s face, and expecting him to move, I imagine I might consider stepping out of the way myself. Does common courtesy end when you walk outside? I don’t think that’s being disingenuous. You really think it is?
California. Sorry, I thought I said that already.
Oh, absolutely. I totally agree with you that walking into a designated smoking area that’s clearly marked as such, as you describe, and then asking people to stop smoking would be ridiculous. But then you’re taking my comment out of context. It was a response to L’il Pluck, who wrote:
He just said “open air”, and so that’s what I was responding to.
But I never said anyone should be “compelled to comply”. Please, when did I ever say that? Isn’t this at least the second time we’ve gone around in a circle on this point?
Why? Are you saying I shouldn’t make a point if I don’t want it to be misinterpreted? I NEVER said smokers should not be allowed to smoke in outdoor public places, and I challenge you to produce a direct quote of me ever saying that. I am not responsible for the incorrect assumptions of others.
I expect them to react with hostility. And that is what I pointed out in this thread. If it’s the truth, then why does my pointing it out upset you?
That sounds like a slippery slope argument to me. I haven’t said anything about smoking in one’s own backyard. And I’m not sure what it has to do with what we’re discussing.
I certainly don’t think that.
Do you think that it is never acceptable for one person to politely request that another person stop smoking? Is there any situation, other than when smoking is expressly forbidden by law, where you wouldn’t consider such a request to be rude, and be angered by it?
People aren’t lucky enough to have that option everywhere. I sometimes like to visit Las Vegas or Reno, and “establishment that allows smoking” is virtually synonymous with “establishment”. And pretty much anywhere in Asia? Forget about it. Depends where you live and how progressive it is.
I didn’t claim to know what’s on their mind, I merely gave my personal opinion as to my own personal experience in how they behave.
By the way, a really great point was made, and I think it has a lot of merit: It could very well be that I simply don’t notice polite smokers, because they have already done whatever they can to keep from bothering other people! So I freely admit that my “sample” could be biased. Perhaps I never had to ask a polite smoker to stop because they were too polite to have bothered me in the first place.
Ha, ha - no, I don’t “think that people will stab me”. I merely meant that such things have happened in our society. I think if you walked up to the biggest, baddest thug you could find and asked him to turn down his music, he probably wouldn’t be nice about it. But definitely an extreme example, and maybe hyperbole on my part.
I never said all non-smokers are polite. Good God - you didn’t think I believed that, did you? I wouldn’t even venture to guess what the “difference in courtesy” is between two groups.
Thanks, and thanks to everyone for your great thought-provoking replies.
But do you really often encounter situations where you’re standing outside, minding your own business, and someone comes over, stands right next to you, and lights a cigarette? I’m honestly asking, because that’s just not how it works around here, as a rule.
Since we’re only allowed to smoke outside, smokers tend to congregate in certain specific areas outside of restaurants, office buildings, etc. So when I’m asked to put out my cigarette (and you’d be surprised how often it happens, people spotting my cig from 50 feet away and coughing theatrically, despite being apparently unbothered by the diesel fumes that hit you in the face the second you walk outdoors in downtown Boston), it’s usually when I’m standing as far out of the flow of traffic as possible, I was there first, and there’s no good reason for the person making the request to be standing right on top of me, anyway. *That’s * what I consider rude.
I can’t imagine say, walking into the park, sitting down next to someone, and lighting up. At this point, I *assume * that my smoke is unwelcome, so I try to do it as far from other people and as unobtrusively as possible. However, if I’m sitting on an isolated bench smoking, and someone makes the choice to sit down next to me, I’m finishing my cigarette, dammit.
I’ll ask you a similar question: Do you really encounter people who “cough theatrically” even when you’re nowhere near them and they can’t even smell the smoke? I’ve certainly never seen that happen.
Come to think of it, someone else said that while he’s in the designated smoking area at the train station, people deliberately walk over to him just so they can then complain about his smoking. I’ve never seen anything like that in my life.
Neither of those things are “how it works around here as a rule”.
And yes, people often do stand near me and light cigarettes. Surely you aren’t contending that no smoker has ever lit up when there is another person closer than 50 feet?
How about this as a solution for cities - they take the number of liquor licenses given out, and create lets say 20% of that number of smoking licenses. These are then allocated to the bars in some way (auction, lottery, whatever). Bartenders/waiters who don’t want to be exposed to the second hand smoke can work in the majority of bars that don’t/can’t allow smoking. Presumably either employees in the non-smoking bars who wish to smoke or find smoking bars better to work in will move the other way to take their places. If not enough do, then I the owners of those establishments will have to increase their pay rates to attract people.
The bars where smoking is allowed would have to have a sign outside clearly announcing it. Now no one is forced into a smoking bar, either to work or to drink/eat. If after a year or so, the bars that allow smoking are more crowded than the others, then the percentage of “smoking” bars could be enlarged.
Unfortunately, I think many of those who campaign for smoking bans would not be satisfied with this.
While I admit that 50 feet was an exaggeration for effect, don’t doubt for a moment that there are plenty of people whom, upon *sight * of a cigarette, begin to cough and wave wildly at the air. Now, to be fair, I have no doubt that these particular people aren’t *just * anti-smoking activisits. I’m absolutely sure that these particular people go through their entire lives seeking out things to be offended by and disapproving of. But damn, there are a lot of them.
Nor would I say that no smoker is ever inconsiderate. But in my experience, a non-smoker is far more likely to feel entitled to ask others to not smoke (no matter where) than smokers are likely to feel entitled to light up (no matter where).
Well I should hope so. There are places where it is forbidden by law to smoke, but there are no places where it is forbidden by law to ask someone not to smoke. As an example, I would definitely feel entitled to ask a person not to smoke at a gas station, and I would hope that people wouldn’t feel entitled to smoke at gas stations.
My I pipe in , yes, yes, yes, yes,yes. I don’t smoke. I work in a building with a picnic table provided for smokers on their breaks. I sometimes go out to hang out with them and get a laugh at the theatrics of the false coughs, the exaggerated hand wavings and the turned up noses of people passing by. (The path is at least five or ten feet away.)
I step back a bit so not to be breathing in the smoke so I know these folks can barely smell it if at all.
It really is amusing but I know annoying to many of my co-workers.
My favorite incident and the one that always leaps to my mind when we have these threads is:
Picture it: Port Authority Bus Terminal. New York, NY. 1991. Smoking is still allowed in the terminal. I’m by the newstand buying a magazine. I put a cigarette in my mouth. Some woman comes out of Walgreens, sees the cig, practically charges across the terminal at me. She starts waving her hands, coughing, gaging. Perhaps if she wasn’t so busy auditioning for a Broadway drama she would have noticed that I was still looking for my lighter. The. Cigarette. Wasn’t. Lit.
Now, that was, by far, the most dramatic incident of the type I’ve ever had. But, there have been others, including others where the cigarette hadn’t even been lit, yet.