Snooping Through Your Kids Things

Great Debates
81

WHOOOOOOSH!

Civ, you know what the trouble with kids these days is? They take teasing WAAAAAAY too seriously…

Look, I was a teenager myself only a few short years ago, I remember all the crap I had to put up with.

What I can’t understand is why all you teenage dopers are convinced that parents who set rules for their kids are horrible abusive parents. Obviously, if your parents are abusive the normal rules don’t apply. But please. Teenagers are still children, they still need parental guidance, they still need their parents to set the rules.

82

And Boris? This “You can’t make me do anything! If you try to make me do something I don’t like I’m going to kill myself!” threat seems juuuuuust a little…well, dare I say childish? Although I agree it is stupid for a parent to make a threat they are not willing and able to carry out. First rule: NEVER make a threat you do not mean.

Perhaps your parents were acutally abusive. But it should not be a parent’s primary concern whether their emotional teenagers hate them or not. If your parents are jerks, you’re probably not ever going to like them much. But it would be a lot easier if you grow up, and view them as simply another set of flawed human beings like the rest of us. The reason they threatened you is that they didn’t know what else to do. Perhaps a more healthy emotion would be compassion and pity for their limited abilities, rather than hatred.

83

I’d just like to point out the distinct difference between setting rules for a teenager(ie, telling them not to do something and prescribing the appropriate punishment if they disobey) and searching the room of a teenager(or otherwise snooping around their personal items.) One is a necessary, and in fact primary function of being a parent, and is indeed beneficial to the maturation of said teenager. The other simply acts to undermine the trust that said teenager would have in the beneficience and trustworthyness of the parent(and hence the rules set forth by the parent.)

(Note to Lemur, I know that this was generally not intended to apply to the specific example of searching the room of a teenager, but I am simply using it as an example of the sort of reasoning that I am seeing used in this later portion of the thread and replying to the method of argument itself.)

Also, since personal experience seems to be important in this topic I will divulge that though I am not a parent(that I know of) I am also not a teenager either, and also have no particular gripe about the respect I recieved for my privact while living at home(other than a regrettable tendency on the part of my parents to forget to knock(no, really- they would just forget) which has left me with a tendency to lock doors behind myself my parents were very respectful of my privacy and I am glad they were.

That said, Civil Defense, while I admire and agree with what you’ve said in most of this thread I think you would be better served if you let go of your argument with the poster who does not allow their (small)children to lock the door while in the bathroom. If they still persist in this rule when said children are in their teens or later, then yes, this would be a serious issue. However at the ages those children are it is a sensible precaution. Please don’t let your previous arguments be drawn into condemning this practice as it will simply weaken your position.

Finally, to Wrath(who said

This statement is condescending and extremely insulting. Please do not make statements like this in the future.

84

My point exactly.

Wrath, what I’m saying is that independent of the law, there’s still an inherent right to privacy, and being under the age of 18 doesn’t make that disappear. Your kids might not be able to press charges against you for reading their diaries or searching their drawers, but that doesn’t make it any more right.

85

This thread reminds me of that Star Trek episode when Kirk and Spock discover a planet of all children. I guess I’m a 'grup.

Initial entry, you say that you are not a teen yet you are insulted by a notice I made to teens. You also say that you are not a parent. I’m not sure why you would be insulted by the fact that it appears that the teens posting here are not giving a fair shake to the parents posting here, making outrageous claims to abusive naziism when all we are trying to do keep our children alive until they can be responsible for themselves.

Have you given any thought at all to what it means to be morally and legally responsible to society for another person? Kunilou said it perfectly. Reread that post.

Our 14 year old got hit by a car when crossing the street (2 years ago). Luckily, she was fine, escaping with a concussion and an arm cast. But she was 12, and forgot to look. My wife was so apoplectic during the rush to the hospital that she couldn’t breathe. It was one of the most frightening things we’ve gone through as parents.

Regarding our younger children. If anything happened to them my wife and I would be scarred for life. You children are your world, taking precidence over everything else in your life. No teen can ever understand that (unless they become parents while being teens). Teens, by definition, are more concerned with themselves than anything else. I know this because I have been a teen and am parent to one.

Can a teen possibly understand the nature of, say, a curfew? I think that they can, if they try to understand what is behind it. All too often, however, a teen will accuse a parent of being overbearing for setting a limit to freedom. As children become teens, the moral, legal and financial burdens increase exponentially. A parent must make sound decisions regarding the welfare of a teen not only because it is morally just, but because it is legally necessary. The same folks who scream naziism about a child not being allowed to lock a bathroom door will scream neglect at the parent whose child drowned in the tub because daddy couldn’t bash the door down quick enough. The same folks who scream “not fair” about a curfew wonder what’s up with the parents when Johnny brings to school the drugs he got the previous night from his “friends”, and gets arrested for selling to other kids.

Knowing this, could you guys chill out a bit, perhaps even give credit where it is due? Is it possible to reach a fair middle ground? And I stand to and abide by my earlier statement, as “condescending” as it may sound: this discussion will be interesting when those without children have them, and for once begin to understand ALL the issues facing a responsible parent when making decisions regarding the welfare of their kids.

86

I’m not quite so sure I agree with all the sweeping generalizations listed above.

In general (thinking back to law school) parents may be civilly liable for the willful misconduct of their children, but not for the ordinary negligence of their kids. They are generally not criminally liable, no matter what. (An exception to this general principle in some jurisdictions, in matters of truancy or curfew violation, may exist.)

With this principle in mind, let’s turn to the hypotheticals posed.

Certainly, if the car being driven is your car, then as the owner your insurance policy is implicated, and your child is likely to be an additional driver under your policy. However, if your child is driving another person’s car, with permission, you are not liable for any damage he causes.

If your child is caught selling dope, it’s true you’ll be “hauled into court” - but not to answer charges yourself. You must appear as the child’s guardian, since a minor cannot act for himself in court.

It all depends. Certainly, you would be a prime target for a lawsuit in the above instance. If you didn’t know aboutthe underage drinking, and shouldn’t reasonably have know, you certainly wouldn’t be criminally liable.

  • Rick

Along with that legal, financial and moral responsibility, I am given certain authority to enforce the decisions made on your behalf.

If you are not comfortable with this, you have the right to declare yourself emancipated and move out. **
[/QUOTE]

87

Haven’t read all of the thread, but I feel strongly on the topic.

First of all, I’m thinking of kids and teens 12+, not toddlers. Second of all this is in terms of my culture and upbringing, not the very different standards that America seems to have about the personal freedom of children.

If my parents had ever gone that far, to actually rummage throught my personal, private things… I’m not even sure what would have happened. I would at least have done something similar to them, if not gotten violent or moved into the street for a couple of weeks.

I must point out that I was quite a rebellious youth and I ended up moving out any way.

I just think that sort of invasion of privacy is an absolutely horrible thing to do, you should always TALK to your kids about things like drugs or bad company, and certainly it’s fine to be on a look out against warning signs. But espionage is a whole different thing in my oppinion, you’re crossing a VERY important line than is the very basis of trust in the home, at least it was for me.

In my home, trust had to be built up BOTH ways. I had no reason to live up to my parents trust if they did not live up to mine. If they showed enough disregard for my personal life to go looking through my closets (trust me, there are things you don’t wanna know about your 12+ kids!), I would simply disregard their personal life as well. I know enough about those guys to put 'em in a lot of trouble anyway :wink:

I would feel violated and raped to know that someone went through my things, let alone actually READ LETTERS OF MINE! I think that was the most shocking thing of all, I mean that could be some pretty damned private stuff!

Anyway, sorry if the letter seemed agressive or irrational, but I just had a sudden flush of anger that I haven’t felt for a while.
People, let’s respect our kids as people, especially if we expect them to respect us back.

— G. Raven

88

Let’s talk about the trust “rebellious” teens have earned.

Does a parent have to ask you to do a chore that you’ve already agreed upon? When your parents ask you to do your chores, do you do them right away? Can you be trusted to do them when they are not around? Do you do a good job of your chores or do you do only what is necessary to make it look like you did them? Do you ever go out of your way and do something extra for your parents, when it is not a birthday, anniversary, etc?

Do you expect allowance for these chores, even when you don’t do them?

Do you do your schoolwork without being asked? Or do your parents trust that you’ve done it?

If a parent asks you to do something that is not typically your chore, do you do it without griping? Do you do it right away? Do you forget often to do it? Can you be trusted to clean up after yourself? To put things away?

If a parent says “be home by ___,” are you good enough to do that? If a parent says to call by ____, do you?

These are some of the little things that tell a parent “I am trustworthy and responsible.” If a parent can’t trust you to clean up after yourself when they ask you to, how can you expect them to trust you with other things? Or, do you fully expect that you deserve to be trusted, even when you haven’t done anything to warrant it?

89

Criminally, perhaps not. Civilly, I certainly can be held responsible, even though it was my child who invited the drunken friend over, and my child who did not take proper precautions to ensure the guest’s safety.

Now, what do you suppose the courts would say if police acted on a search warrant, found contraband in my kid’s room, and my defense was “yes, it’s my house and that’s my child, but that’s his room, so I’m not responsible for what’s in there.”

90

The fact that you addressed it to the teens that, in that case, you were debating does not mean that the statement itself is not equally insulting to anyone else arguing on the same side of the issue as those teenagers. I am insulted by it since it is equally condescending of any who are not parents( since apparently we are all unable to understand why these actions are obviously necessary unless we ourselves are parents)

I’m not insulted in the slightest by them doing so, I am however pointing out that they are weakening their position that you are using ineffective and harmful methods in your attempts to raise your children.

**

**
Um, I think that whole “completely legally responsible” bit was already covered quite nicely and shown to be not quite as complete as it was made out to sound. As for morally? It is indeed quite a large responsibility, one would hope that those who decide to become parents have the abilities necessary to fulfill those responsibilities without resorting to tactics that demean and harm the children left in their charges.

**

I suppose it’s a good thing that you have now started searching their room regularly in order to prevent future occurences of this sort. How exactly is this relevant other to show that, like the majority of parents out there, you have an emotional attachment to your child? Or is it perhaps just another “you’re not a parent you can’t possibly understand why I do this, or criticize me for doing it” sort of argument?

As one would, indeed, hope. Since they are the most important thing in your life then I would hope that you would make sure to let them develop fully into adults and that you will do your best to maintain a healthy relationship with them. Neither of those two goals are supported by invasions of privacy.
**

Um, I as a teenager(ie, when I was a teenager) understood that perfectly. I didn’t always agree with my parents, but I understood that they were trying to act in my best interests even when they obviously weren’t quite sure what those interests were. Also I would like to ask you how, if teenagers are only ever concerned with themselves, why most of the teenagers I knew(and know) are amoung the most idealistic people I’ve ever met. Unless you can answer these questions(ie, about my personal case, and about the trend I’ve observed amoung other teenagers) then I’ll just have to assume that that was a random ad hominem and dismiss it. I’m sure that a respected poster like yourself would never stoop to something like that though, would you?

**
And in some cases they will be right, and in some cases they will be wrong. Do you have a point here that is at all relevant to the actual issue here? Am I to assume that this is your response to my question as to whether or not you would understand the difference between setting guidelines and rules for your teenagers and wontonly invading their privacy since you are no longer able to communicate effectively with them?

**
Yes, they must. Why is this up for debate? Do you think that somehow gives you the justification to make what is, in the position of the people arguing with you not a sound decision (ie the one that involves searching the room of your child.)

**
Again, what relevance does establishing rules have to the discussion at hand?

Thank you for confirming my opinion of you. I had hoped that it would not be so confirmed but at least in this case I know I can safely ignore posts by you from now on.

91

Initial Entry, you seem like an intelligent person, albeit with something of a chip on your shoulder. So let’s see where you and I agree and disagree.

My point: I am responsible for my children, and for what happens inside my house.

My point: Along with this responsibility comes a certain authority, which includes the authority to look through my children’s belongings.

My point: I do not abuse this authority – no parent should. As I pointed out in my first post, I have three children and have searched one child’s room one time. And, I might add, I only did that after the one commited a totally rash and stupid act that resulted in a week’s stay in the hospital.

Your point, if I understand it, is that children should have an absolute right of privacy, that parents have no right to step in their rooms without permission

92

I no longer have any reason to respond to anything further you may have to say. You have now personally insulted and slandered me. I will not stand for that.

93

Initial Entry: You’re not listening. He’s not saying that all the kids were stupid, just that most of them complaining about intrusive parents will change their tunes when THEY become parents. Um, I bet most of the parents who are posting here would have been outraged if their parents infringed on THEIR privacy when they were teenagers.

All he’s saying is that parents of teenagers are neccesarily going to have a different perspective than teenagers. And that every parent of a teenager at one time was a teenager, but no teenager has ever been the parent of a teenager. That seems to indicate to me that perhaps the parents of teenagers have a little more breadth of knowledge on this subject.

But I want to get back to this idea that a child’s room is private. Obviously, a young child’s room cannot be private. At what point does it become intrusive for a parent to go into their child’s room? In my mind, this is only a betrayal of trust if the parent promised not to go into the teenager’s room.

As far as legal responsibility goes, did you know that you can have property seized if it was used for a drug crime…even if you, the owner of the property, did not commit the crime? If your teenager is selling drugs out of your house, your house can be confiscated.

The point is that a parent is legally responsible for what happens on their property. The correct thing to do, in my opinion, is for parents to never give the impression that the child’s room is private. I agree that as children get older they should be granted more and more privacy, but they cannot and should not have the same rights to privacy that an adult living in their own home would have. At the very least, a parent should make it clear that they have the right to enter a child’s room at any time, but that they will knock first. Personally, I wouldn’t search a kid’s room unless I had reason to believe that I would find evidence of criminal activity, or self-destructive behavior. But I would definately step in now and then, if only to check that the kid’s firearms are properly stored and they are following correct gun safety procedures.

94

Sorry, I accidentally hit Submit before I got through with this. Let me try again.

Initial Entry, you seem like an intelligent person, albeit with something of a chip on your shoulder. So let’s see where you and I agree and disagree.

My point: I am responsible for my children, and for what happens inside my house.

My point: Along with this responsibility comes a certain authority, which includes the authority to look through my children’s belongings.

My point: I do not abuse this authority – no parent should. As I pointed out in my first post, I have three children and have searched one child’s room one time. And, I might add, I only did that after the one commited a totally rash and stupid act that resulted in a week’s stay in the hospital.

Your point, if I understand it, is that children (at least children above a certain age who have not yet reached legal adulthood) should have an absolute right of privacy, that parents have no right to step in their rooms without permission, and that the trust a parent places in a child is of paramount importance.

If you have not already learned, you will shortly that no right is absolute. The right to free speech does not include the right to libel. The right to be secure in one’s home does not include the right to ignore a duly authorized search warrant.

Bricker’s arguments not withstanding (and no one wants to start throwing case law citations around here), I am responsible for my children and I do derive a certain authority from that responsibility. If, in my judgment as a parent, I believe that my child may have something that can do harm to himself or others, I believe I have a responsibility to search for it.

95

Oh, could you please, in your heart of hearts, not ignore this one last post, and explain to me what is so insulting about wanting to know how your opinion in this matter will change the day you become a parent?

First of all, let me state that my wife and I have not snooped on our children, ever. Our 14 yr old keeps personal effects the we do not touch out of respect to her as an individual. Our children’s freedoms increase with their level of maturity. You accused me of snooping, perhaps because I have been a staunch defender of a parent’s right to snoop given the situation.

Your response posting style tends to take statements out of context when the point of my post was to provide a full-spectrum scenario of what is behind a parents duties and responsibilities should the need to snoop ever arise. Perhaps because it seems to me that you are anti-parent, or anti-authority, or whatever.

Many teens posting here seem to take the position that a parent legally has to provide for you (true), instead of being thankful that a parent does all they can to provide for you. You could, for instance, live in a trailer, sleeping in 1 room with your parents and siblings, have soup and cabbage for dinner every night, have 1 change of clothes and not have niceties like cable TV, PlayStation and a computer, but the very fact that you are reading this says you are probably more privileged than not.

A parent does not, as some believe, have children to have something to rule over. Dogs are far cheaper, less rebellious, more loyal, more protective, more trainable and a wiser choice to that end. Couples usually decide to have children because a family life is important to them, or that it is a religious duty, or that raising children is something their hearts command them to do, as a calling higher than any other in the world. True, some do become parents unexpectedly, and perhaps are resentful because of it. If you are child to a resentful parent, then I feel sorry for you. And, despite glorious reasons for becoming parents, many of us are not Mr. and Mrs. Cunningham when it comes to parenting.

Fact is, parents as a whole are far more loving and devoted to their children, through their teens and well into adulthood, than you teens and young adults posting here seem to realize. The parents I’ve met at school activities, intramural sports, and birthday parties are some of the most caring and virtuous people I’ve known. I cringe at the thought that these children who have such loving and responsible parents might soon grow to loathe the ones who have cared for them when sick, cooked for them, taught them how to ride a bike and swim, taught them how to throw a ball, and cared for them some more. If you can’t trust your parents, of all people in the world, to make sound decisions on your behalf, then in whom do you place your trust?

So, slip into the teen years and you, the child, become a freedom fighter, resentful of any limitations placed on behavior. Instead of understanding the need for these limits, you take an attitude of rebellion. You start doing things your parents could not possibly believe that their wonderful child is capable of. What went wrong? What happened? As the struggle intensifies, your parents begin to question your behavior. Is she into drugs? Is he drinking? Has he joined a gang? If communication has broken down because of your rebellious nature and the parent’s inability to deal with it successfully, and your parents can no longer trust you, you can bet dimes to dollars that they will snoop.

If you wish more privacy and trust, earn it by being respectful to the ones who’ve raised you. Unless you live in a 1 bedroom trailer, where the snooping point is moot.

96

If I may, it seems like this thread has to a certain extent devolved into a “which came first, the chicken or the egg?” debate. Some people are saying teenagers must earn trust and shouldn’t have any until they do; others are saying teenagers are entitled to trust and ought to be extended it automatically. To me, that’s not the point. The point, or rather the question, is: when is a parent justified in “betraying” that trust by searching the teenager’s room?

I am not a parent. When I am, I imagine I will feel as I do now, which is that my first duty to my children is to safeguard their health and welfare. Their right to privacy in my house stops not at my front door or the at the door to their room or at any other physical location, but rather at the precise moment in time when I have reason to suspect that they by their actions are endangering their health or welfare.

If I thought my child was bulimic, there would be no more unsupervised trips to the bathroom. If I thought my child was suicidal, there’d be no more unsupervised trips anywhere. If I thought my child had an unhealthy obsession with fire or with knives, one that might lead to burning the house down or hurting themselves or others, would I search their room? In a heartbeat. If I thought my child was suicidal, would I read their journal? In a heartbeat. I would do anything to keep my child safe, and their “rights” to privacy or dignity or whatever else they feel entitled to be damned.

In this thread, we have heard from people who still resent having their privacy violated as teens because that violation was not justified. Your mom read your journal just because she’s a snoop? No wonder you’re pissed; where’s the justification for that? That is a far different thing from having legitimate reason for suspecting your child – for whom you are responsible – is doing something truly unhealthy, illegal, or dangerous. And NOT ONE PERSON has posted who had parents who searched their room with good reason who still believes their parent was wrong to do so.

Frankly, I don’t care whether you think trust and privacy should be given as a matter or right or should be earned. The fact is that, either way, circumstances do exist when such considerations must be secondary to health and welfare. That, IMO, is where the rubber hits the road. Would I invade my children’s privacy for no reason? Of course not. Would I invade it if I thought their well-being depended on it? Without a second thought. And if my child doesn’t understand that, then he can hate me until the moment he dies in his bed at the age of 95.

97

Very well put Jodi! Thank you!

98

I got to baby sit lots of rather screwed up childeren when I worked as a psych tech on an adolescent unit of a psych hospital. A lot of the kids were there because they were given too much privacy and freedom too soon. A good number of them were even angry at thier parents for not seeing what was going on in thier lives, and not doing any thing to stop the bad things that were happening. The drug use, gang involvement etc. Cant remeber any that were there because their parents searched their room, or read thier email.

A minor living in thier parents house do not have the same rights to freedom and privacy that an adult does. It is the parents duty to gradually grant these rights to the child as they grow older, and show the responsabiltiy to handle those rights. Parents have a responsability to set limits for their childer on what they can and can’t do, and to the best of thier ability make sure that these limits are being adhered to. If my kid does nothing to make me suspect that he is doing something wrong, then I won’t search his room. He he does something wrong, then I would make it clear to him that he violated the trust, and that now he has to earn it back.

99

Since you asked.

Only if it slips my mind.

Not if I am otherwise occupied.

Isn’t this the definition of autonomy? Of course I can.

I see no reason not to do anything correctly if you’re going to do it at all.

Damn right.

I have never asked for an allowance, and never will. I find allowances to be degrading. Why should I be paid for doing my part to help out around the house?

My parents know that I’m responsible enough to do so, yes.

If a coworker or friend of yours asks you to do something that is not typically your task, do you do it without gripnig? Do you do it right away? Do you forget often to do it? Can you be trusted to clean up after yourself? To put things away?

Yes. And quite frankly, if you speak to your children the way you speak to others on this board (“are you good enough?”) then I feel sorry for them.

As to the poster who posted something along the lines of “teenagers by defintion think of only themselves,” I can now rest easy knowing I made the right choice in ignoring your future posts. Not only was that personally insulting and offensive, but it contributed nothing worthwhile to the discussion and only served to fufill your personal ego. Kindly refrain.

To the others who have posted their “other side” views- You’re not understanding. Because you are a parent does not mean by default you know what you’re doing. Far from it, in my experience, parents can be sometimes more ignorant and belligerent than their children. However, I maintain my philosophy that parents and children should work together as a team in their responsibilities. Trust is an integral part of this relationship. If a parent finds that their child does not respect them, odds are that if the parent took a step back and examined the situation, they would find that they often do not respect their children.

100

…my name is Super_Head, and I was a victim of snooping. For years, dear mum took it upon herself to invade the privacy of both me and my middle brother (the oldest somehow escaped the prying eyes). This snooping included: looking under beds, rummaging through drawers, reading mail (especially if left out in the open to tempt her), putting videos in the VCR to see if we had anything “naughty” - I am firmly convinced that she was a snooper to begin with and watching idiotic daytime talk shows only made it worse (this was the fertile ground from which her paranoid delusions sprung).

Anyway - without going into the specific instances (although I will if you ask, some of them are way out there) - suffice it to say that I lost all trust in my mother to respect my privacy, which quickly expanded into respecting my beliefs, my hopes, my dreams, blah blah. And I have never recovered that trust - and, to make matters worse, it has spilled over to other people.

To this day, I’m extremely (and I mean extremely) territorial - there are perhaps 3 people I trust to be in my home when I am not there, excluding my wife whom I trust above all others. I’m 29 years old now - and I doubt I’ll be outgrowing it anytime soon. Thanks mom!