So-Called “Cancel Culture”, Social Media and Bullying

[BigT]

@YWTF

@iiandyiiii

What is “shutting down”?

It actually doesn’t have to be much. Bullies feel empowered to go to the max because when polarization occurs, the bullies only surround themselves with other bullies to form a sort of protective echo chamber of righteousness. They can’t hear the people they are attacking or their defenders; they feel as if everyone believes as they do. The only people who can get through to them are the people who have access to the inside of the chamber. Someone has to be the guy that says “Hey I think he/she’s wrong but calling this Nazism/genocide/hate speech/etc is too much”.

Yet you’re the one who repeatedly called people in the trans thread sexist when they didn’t say anything anti-women, just pro trans. You took posts out of context, or even just acted like they said the opposite of what they said. You attacked me as helping Trump win when I explained that it wasn’t women whose opinions I didn’t care about, just the transphobic women.

Oh, and for the record, I know what JK Rowling said. I just didn’t bring it up because it seemed like the trans thread had moved on. The irony here is that @DemonTree only brought out a single tweet, as if that’s all she said on the subject. But she wrote several posts before that that hinted at her transphobia. Then this post, then an essay defending herself, then some posts after that essay got backlash (including one rather offensive one I’ll mention later). It was what she wrote in the essay that pretty much ended the debate in the HP fandom.

Said essay argues that it’s not possible to both advocate for women’s rights and treat trans women as women. This is of course bunkum, since the majority of feminists are trans-inclusive. They easily argue for women’s rights and fighting the patriarchy.

It includes fake statistics about most trans people wanting to transition back, a long debunked concept. It has the fear mongering about fake trans women in bathrooms–something that would have happened long ago since there was never a requirement to prove you were a woman to use the women’s restroom. So why weren’t there a rash of men dressing like women before?

She says that trans rights are human rights, sure. But, then she claims it is “virtue signaling” since her argument is that the one most basic right that trans people fight for–that trans women are women and that trans men are men–is wrong. She cares for them the same way the pastor who says that being gay is wrong loves gay people. She’s against the very basic aspect of who they are.

I could go on, but I’ll stop here, and mention the offensive tweet. In it, she says that all the complaints she got reminded her of when she was sexually assaulted. Now, was the person who assaulted her trans? Nope. Did he pretend to be a woman? Nope. Was it even in a bathroom? Nope. It had no relevance to anything anyone said (which included debunking her nonsense statistics. Not only is this offensive to trans people by associating them with sexual assault perpetrators. But it’s insulting to other victims to have her being a victim used to try and defend herself from people daring to disagree with her.

Thing is, most people in their thirties or younger know that what she said is bullshit. And those tend to be the ones who read her books–they were kids. Not because of some “party line” but because we actually know trans people, and that what they ask for is not a threat to anyone. Many have had them in the same bathrooms as them, and it’s no big deal–why would it be? You don’t peek in the stalls or look down there.

Among those who matter --her fans–there’s not really all that much debate about her specifically. It’s just about whether or not it ruins the books or makes them not want to view them. I haven’t found a single HP fandom that is okay with what she did. There’s a reason why Daniel Radcliff himself came out and decried her. Emma Watson did, too–you know, a flipping feminist activist.

I keep telling you that the whole “gender critical feminism” is generally seen as old and outdated, or used as a euphemism by anti-trans feminists. They’re seen partnering with conservative women’s groups to go against trans people, even.

Said essay:

J.K. Rowling Writes about Her Reasons for Speaking out on Sex and Gender...

[DemonTree]

@BigT

You attacked me as helping Trump win when I explained that it wasn’t women whose opinions I didn’t care about, just the transphobic women.

@BigT

She says that trans rights are human rights, sure. But, then she claims it is “virtue signaling” since her argument is that the one most basic right that trans people fight for–that trans women are women and that trans men are men–is wrong.

Notice that being ‘transphobic’ does not require hating anyone. It means disagreeing with a philosophical position that has some disturbing real world implications. Calling someone transphobic just serves to shut down the discussion and reinforce the echo chamber. In the short term this is effective for keeping support. But in the long term, by refusing to listen to those who disagree with you, you remove the ability to course-correct. And eventually some percentage of people are going to look at what the supposed transphobes and bigots are saying and realise it makes sense. And then they are going to feel the left has lied to them. And people who are unsure are going to see reasonable views being called bigoted and watch the left carrying out a witch hunt and decide they want nothing to do with that. And then they don’t vote for you any more.

@BigT

Said essay argues that it’s not possible to both advocate for women’s rights and treat trans women as women. This is of course bunkum, since the majority of feminists are trans-inclusive. They easily argue for women’s rights and fighting the patriarchy.

‘This is of course bunkum, since some people disagree’. Yeah, that’s real convincing. Thirdwave feminism isn’t exactly doing a sterling job anyway; things are worse now for girls and young women growing up than they were when I was a child.

@BigT

It includes fake statistics about most trans people wanting to transition back

It does not. It just says there are ‘increasing numbers’.

[Quote=“JK Rowling”]
I’m concerned about the huge explosion in young women wishing to transition and also about the increasing numbers who seem to be detransitioning (returning to their original sex), because they regret taking steps that have, in some cases, altered their bodies irrevocably, and taken away their fertility. Some say they decided to transition after realising they were same-sex attracted, and that transitioning was partly driven by homophobia, either in society or in their families.

[quote]

@BigT

Thing is, most people in their thirties or younger know that what she said is bullshit. And those tend to be the ones who read her books–they were kids. Not because of some “party line” but because we actually know trans people, and that what they ask for is not a threat to anyone. Many have had them in the same bathrooms as them, and it’s no big deal–why would it be? You don’t peek in the stalls or look down there.

I’m in my 30s. I know trans people. I’ve shared public toilets with them and it was no big deal. But I still agree with Rowling.

BigT, do you know what trans people - or the very well funded organisations representing them - are actually asking for? (Hint - toilets is the least of it.) Get back to me when you do.

@BigT

There’s a reason why Daniel Radcliff himself came out and decried her.

Yes, his career. He may be perfectly sincere in what he said, but it’s no skin off his nose and he’s not such a fool as to want to share JKR’s opprobrium.

When you place such heavy penalties on dissent, one cost is that you no longer know if agreement is genuine. This is another issue with cancel culture.

@BigT

I keep telling you that the whole “gender critical feminism” is generally seen as old and outdated, or used as a euphemism by anti-trans feminists. They’re seen partnering with conservative women’s groups to go against trans people, even.

Honey, we know. What you’re not doing is convincing us that they are wrong. Those old school feminists achieved great things, which we’re still greatful for today. So just maybe they have some idea of what they are talking about.

As for her other tweet, why don’t you quote it?

[Banquet_Bear]

@DemonTree

Calling someone transphobic just serves to shut down the discussion and reinforce the echo chamber.

…incorrect.

Calling an obviously transphobic person transphobic doesn’t shut down conversation. Its simply calling a spoon a spoon.

And the “echo chamber” is a construct on a par with “cancel culture.” Its used as a convenient weapon to shut down the conversation the same way you’ve just claimed that calling someone transphobic is: except the difference is that I can point to specific behaviours and actions that demonstrate transphobia. You can’t do that with an 'echo chamber".

[Banquet_Bear]

@DemonTree

BigT, do you know what trans people - or the very well funded organisations representing them - are actually asking for?

…I would suggest that most of them want something very simple. For you to be kind. Is that something you are capable of?

(And outside of conspiracy theories: most of the organisations that are funding them are not (comparatively) well funded)

[DemonTree]

@Banquet_Bear

I would suggest that most of them want something very simple. For you to be kind.

This is emotional manipulation intended to shut down debate. You participated in the other thread and have absolutely no excuse for this.

[Banquet_Bear]

@DemonTree

This is emotional manipulation intended to shut down debate. You participated in the other thread and have absolutely no excuse for this.

…see everyone: this here is the real “cancel culture” in action. You asked the question what trans people - or the very well funded organisations representing them - are actually asking for? And the reality is that at its heart, what they want if for you to be kind. Yes, there are asking for other things as well. But kindness? Respect? Understanding? That would be a real meaningful place to start.

[DemonTree]

@iiandyiiii

I think this is good stuff. The difference is that I also think calling the bigots Nazis is good stuff too. Even playing off each other can be good stuff. I think hyperbole can be very useful, just like restraint can be useful. All of these various rhetorical approaches can be useful and have a place.

Since before Trump’s election we’ve been hearing ‘nazi’ and ‘fascist’ every day. At this point it’s like the boy who cried wolf: not only does no one take it seriously any more, calling someone a nazi is probably a bigger hit to your credibility than to theirs.

But fine, carry on. Your methods worked so well in 2016, I can’t imagine why you’d want to change them.

[iiandyiiii]

@DemonTree

Since before Trump’s election we’ve been hearing ‘nazi’ and ‘fascist’ every day. At this point it’s like the boy who cried wolf: not only does no one take it seriously any more, calling someone a nazi is probably a bigger hit to your credibility than to theirs.

But fine, carry on. Your methods worked so well in 2016, I can’t imagine why you’d want to change them.

“My methods” worked quite well in 2018, actually, when they were mixed with many other methods. Which is what I advocate - not a single rhetorical strategy, but all possible rhetorical strategies. It’s going to happen anyway - the masses on social media can’t be controlled. So let’s embrace that, and send strong messages from strong voices who have skill at each of these strategies.

[DemonTree]

@Banquet_Bear

And the reality is that at its heart, what they want if for you to be kind. Yes, there are asking for other things as well. But kindness? Respect? Understanding? That would be a real meaningful place to start.

Oh bullshit. Telling women to ‘be kind’ is just a way of shutting us up and getting us to ignore reality and our own interests as a group. And it’s particularly effective because kindness is part of the feminine stereotypes, so we’re judged more harshly for not obeying them. Screw that.

[DemonTree]

If Trump wins in 2020, will you agree to consider alternatives?

[iiandyiiii]

I’m already advocating all the rhetorical alternatives, all at once. Which is going to happen anyway, no matter what I say.

[Banquet_Bear]

@DemonTree

Since before Trump’s election we’ve been hearing ‘nazi’ and ‘fascist’ every day. At this point it’s like the boy who cried wolf: not only does no one take it seriously any more, calling someone a nazi is probably a bigger hit to your credibility than to theirs.

…since Trump was elected there has been significant churn in his administration. But there has been one constant. This guy here, Stephen Miller. Miller is a white supremacist. That isn’t an ad hominem. Its an accurate description of both his behaviour, his ideology, and the policies he is responsible for implementing. And those policies include separating families at the borders. Yanking brown people off the streets. Detaining immigrants in facilities that don’t allow them to lie down. Denying them basics like soap and toothbrushes. How many are in detention? Nobody knows. How many families were separated? Nobody really knows. What is happening, right now, in the middle of a pandemic in the detention camps? We really don’t know.

Trump is removing oversight, he declared today that he was going to stay on four more years than he is constitutionally allowed to, the top serving officers in the Department of Homeland Security are serving illegally, and the reality is that I could probably keep on listing the things that Trump and members of his administration have done that are either unconstitutional or illegal for the next couple of hours. Every single day he either lies, commits or admits to an unconstitutional act.

We aren’t crying wolf. You simply aren’t paying attention.

[YWTF]

@BigT

Yet you’re the one who repeatedly called people in the trans thread sexist when they didn’t say anything anti-women, just pro trans. You took posts out of context, or even just acted like they said the opposite of what they said. You attacked me as helping Trump win when I explained that it wasn’t women whose opinions I didn’t care about, just the transphobic women.

I called certain positions sexist but I’m pretty sure I didn’t call anyone sexist in that thread. It’s actually pretty remarkable the number of accusations you’re flinging around in this post. But I’m not seeing anything that constitutes a rational takedown of any opinion I expressed or argument I presented. Here are some of them.

I believe redefining woman so that it amounts to meaningless circularity is indefensible dystopic hot garbage, and it offends me as a scientist and a woman.

I believe that by allowing males to self-identify as women we’re endangering the privacy and safety of women and girls who will no longer have single-sex accommodations to limit their exposure to male predation.

I don’t believe in calling anyone “cis” without their consent as it assumes everyone has a gender identity that exists separately from their sex. I’m not a ciswoman. I’m a woman. An adult human female. I’m not a cisAfrican-American or a cishuman, either.

Yes, I believe the female half of the species has been oppressed because it is biologically female. Misogyny is a lot deeper than what you look like, what clothes you wear, or whether you’re addressed as “she”.

Female athletes deserve to play against female athletes. Not male athletes who identify as female.

None of these views are transphobic. Can they be debated? Sure. Do they make me a despicable person? Not in the slightest. Any attempt to shame me for my political beliefs will fail because I’m confident enough in myself to know exactly why I feel the way I do.

BigT, I certainly believe that if you and others go around calling women TERFs and then insist you don’t care about them, you will certain alienate voters from voting Dem in November. The number of “TERFs” are growing by the day and most of them seem to be liberal-leaning. Many are moderates and we can pretty much wave goodbye to them now. If this starts showing itself in the polls, I don’t want to see you cryIng about it, okay?

[Cheesesteak]

@DemonTree

Notice that being ‘transphobic’ does not require hating anyone. It means disagreeing with a philosophical position that has some disturbing real world implications.

Trans rights isn’t a philosophical position, it is rooted in the real world implications of how transgendered people are treated. Some philosophy professor, like the first one in the academics letter linked above, can research transgenderism and declare that people can’t change their gender.

For her, it’s just idle navel gazing. For my son’s schoolmate M, it isn’t a philosophical question. It’s a declaration that M is a boy, M should be called by M’s original boy’s name, should be referred to as He and Him and His. All the things that made M so uncomfortable and unhappy before are what they rightfully should experience day in and day out for the rest of their life.

Not only is this professor personally thinking this, she is publicizing this idea in an effort to influence others to think the same. Whether or not this professor “hates” M is irrelevant, she is actively promoting a course of action that will hurt M, deeply and profoundly. I, for one, feel no need to tolerate that.

[Banquet_Bear]

@DemonTree

Oh bullshit. Telling women to ‘be kind’ is just a way of shutting us up and getting us to ignore reality and our own interests as a group.

…you’ve recontextualised my answer. It wasn’t addressed to “women.” It was addressed to everyone. I have no interest in telling anyone, especially women, to “shut up.” If it was my intention to tell women to shut up then that is what I would have said.

To conflate a “request for kindness” with a demand to “shut up” is just completely ridiculous.

@DemonTree

And it’s particularly effective because kindness is part of the feminine stereotypes, so we’re judged more harshly for not obeying them. Screw that.

With all due respect: but what the hell are you talking about? I’m talking about stuff like this:

A 65-year-old north Cork farmer has spoken of her surprise and delight at the hugely positive response she received after telling how she has started to transition from male to female on RTÉ’s Liveline programme.

Erica Coates, who was born Eric, said she was prompted to ring Joe Duffy upon hearing how a 22-year-old man was having difficulty transitioning to female.

“I was surprised at the response I’ve got. To be honest I was surprised that Liveline wanted me on in the first place. I would a very private shy kind of person and I was as nervous as hell but Joe Duffy is very professional and it was just like having a chat, one to one with someone.

Transgender Cork farmer (65) surprised at positive response to telling her story

When he came out to his mother, Heather Lundberg Green, she accepted him immediately. She even planned a gender reveal photo shoot where she pretended to be pregnant and then wrapped Brown in a blanket as if he was a baby. The photos instantly went viral on Facebook.

“When your child comes out as trans, the best thing to do is create a photo shoot to celebrate the fact that he silently and bravely stepped out of the race that he never wanted to be in, found his own lane and proceeded to win,” she wrote on Facebook.

8 viral transgender coming out stories that will warm your heart

I’ve been going to my local steak and cheese joint for 9 years now, beginning in 2011, and for 5 of them I was nicknamed “the cheese steak guy.” In 2016 when I fully transitioned as a women, one day I showed up and was asked “the usual, steak and cheese girl?”

I went to a restaurant recently and the server was someone I went to highschool with and she recognized me and said “you’re looking really good! What do you go by now?” And it made me so happy because I never know how to breach that subject and she was supportive right away!

My favourite reaction was “hey, I hear I’ve been getting your name wrong this whole time. Lets start over! I’m x, nice to meet you.”

When I went into my bank with my name change documents the lady behind the counter was like “finally! We were wondering when you were going to do that. Congrats” and then went around all the other tellers to share my new name with them.

I was in my old neighbourhood and stopped by the corner store for cigarettes and the owner, who saw me for several times a week for 5 years just wen “Long time no see looks at card Eleanor!”

It was grand

Former coworker transitioned. Older gentleman/regular customer came in one day and said “what’s your new name? Is that your true self? I’m happy for you.” Patted him on the shoulder and walked off. I got a bit teary.

My bagel guy told me he loved me. Well, what he said was, “everything, tofu scallion, right?” But considering I had completely swapped out gender presentation and he still knew my order he basically said “I love you and thanks for your continued patronage”

My sisters friend from college said “I like your new look! What’s your name again?” That was awesome.

When the owner of the Chinese place I go to saw me for the first time after transitioning she said “handsome young man! It’s good to see you again, what’s your name now?” and i felt so much relief

Here Are 30 People’s Tweets About How Others Reacted To Their Gender...

You know, kindness.

None of any of that requires women, as a group, to “shut up.” It takes nothing at all to be understanding, to be kind, to be respectful and doing something really simple can make someone’s day.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

Okay, before I even dig in to this, is this the worst that cancel culture does?

So is THIS your strong example?

It’s pretty telling that DemonTree just keeps throwing out these weaksauce nonsense stories that don’t stand up to a moment’s scrutiny, refusing to stand behind any of them; and when called on this behavior, her response is to throw out more weaksauce nonsense stories.

I see no reason, going forward, to take any of her examples seriously, until she decides to take them seriously herself. It’s a variant of the Gish Gallop, and I’m not here for that.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@DemonTree

Oh bullshit. Telling women to ‘be kind’ is just a way of shutting us up and getting us to ignore reality and our own interests as a group.

This is a classic right-wing tactic. Criticism is reframed as censorship. When people who are traditionally marginalized (and even if you adopt the odious position that transwomen are really just men, there aren’t many more marginalized groups of “men” than those who identify as women) speak up, especially when they’re angry at attempts to confine their freedom, conservatives like to accuse them of stripping the conservatives of their freedom.

It’s astonishing how “I’m rubber and you’re glue” has so prominent a place in conservative rhetoric.

[QuickSilver]

@Banquet_Bear

…is this something you really believe? That there aren’t enough interesting, qualified, marginalised voices out there that haven’t said “dumb things” that you are going to run out of speakers?

@iiandyiiii

I doubt it. In my experience, in most fields there are tons of great contributors who’ve been mostly ignored beyond their own little piece, because they lacked connections or didn’t care about self promotion. And a big chunk of those are women and people of color, who had to claw their way in on hard work and talent, because they didn’t have those connections in the good ol boy network.

I’ll repeat what I said earlier:

@QuickSilver

That’s fine. But you should know that if you insist on such pristine standards, you are going to run out of interesting, qualified speakers faster than you might imagine.

Meaning, you will be hard pressed to find an abundance of smart people who at some point or another haven’t said something dumb. Everybody makes mistakes – It’s human nature. . The younger they are, the more likely it will be that there’s online record of them doing so. And somebody will dig it up because that’s how things seem to be now. How they’ve always been. So let’s all try to stay grounded in reality, not some idealized fantasy of how you wish things would be if only we could just get rid of all the people who made the mistake of saying things you disagree with.

[DemonTree]

@Cheesesteak

Trans rights isn’t a philosophical position, it is rooted in the real world implications of how transgendered people are treated. Some philosophy professor, like the first one in the academics letter linked above, can research transgenderism and declare that people can’t change their gender.

It’s also a philosophical question with real world implications for how women are treated. That is what the ‘be kind’ people refuse to acknowledge.

I have no objection to calling M ‘she’ and using her preferred name. I’m objecting to changing the law in ways that will hurt women, because we are denying biological differences exist.

I also believe it makes it harder to fight for women’s rights if we can’t acknowledge exactly why and how we’re discriminated against, and gather accurate statistics about it.

I don’t think it’s kind to uncritically affirm every child who questions their gender identity, even when there are huge red flags, and I don’t think it’s kind to prescribe off-label drugs to kids who are too young to make an informed decision. I also don’t think it’s kind to try and block research into this issue because of an ideology that only permits one answer.

But my biggest objection is that anyone who has a problem with these things and wants to discuss them is dismissed as ‘unkind’ or a bigot, or right-wing. So a public conversation never takes place and we can never fix any of these problems.

[iiandyiiii]

@QuickSilver

Meaning, you will be hard pressed to find an abundance of smart people who at some point or another haven’t said something dumb. Everybody makes mistakes – It’s human nature. . The younger they are, the more likely it will be that there’s online record of them doing so. And somebody will dig it up because that’s how things seem to be now. How they’ve always been. So let’s all try to stay grounded in reality, not some idealized fantasy of how you wish things would be if only we could just get rid of all the people who made the mistake of saying things you disagree with.

But what kind of dumb? Dumb as in “once I forgot to double-check the source statistics”? Or dumb as in “unwittingly gave rhetorical aid to white supremacists and/or misogynists”? There’s a difference. I don’t think we’ll run out of people who managed to avoid the latter type of dumb.