What is the difference between someone who is stubbornly wrongheaded about racial differences and a racist?
I stopped following that thread, so I don’t know what it was that iiandyiiii said, but I imagine that he probably apologized when he found that his words had hurt someone.
Were the words of JKR or any of the other examples given something that they inadvertently said?
Has JKR or any of the other examples given apologized for the harm that their words caused?
Threats are different than being obnoxious and bigoted. Threats are a big problem, but they’re not part of “cancel culture”. Threats are threats, and no one is advocating threats.
It needs to be emphasized that @iiandyiiii didn’t say anything hurtful in the JKR thread. He expressed opinions that showed ignorance and bias (IMO), but we’ll all grown ups on this board. Ain’t nothing he said should’ve caused hurt feelings. I‘m glad he said what he said, because otherwise I wouldn’t understand the underlying basis of his beliefs and why they are so different from my own.
I did answer your question, just not in a way that you liked. Racist/misogynist/bigoted stuff to celebrities isn’t “cancel culture”. It’s bad and shouldn’t be tolerated or excused. But it really has nothing to do with cancel culture – racism/misogyny/bigotry is what causes someone to be criticized (and then sometimes they whine about it). I haven’t accused anyone of whining about being targeted for racist or misogynist or bigoted attacks.
Case by case basis, I think. If we are talking about Harris, then what lead me to giving him the benefit of the doubt is that he explicitly says that there is more variation and overlap within groups than can be explained by grouping by race. He goes on to say that history of racism plays a huge role. He has also said that racism is simply bad for society. To me, he appears to be one step away from rejecting Murray’s hypothesis. I’m not sure why he hasn’t to date. But I’m not ready to accuse him of racism because of it.
I see that I’ve been corrected and I really want to avoid detailed discussions of what JKR or iiandyiiii said or meant. I’m trying to keep it very meta, i.e.: Someone said something whether through philosophical position or error caused others to be offended. There is room for disagreement on whether it’s offensive. Not all contrarian views demand an apology. But often, on the internets, large numbers of people demand one anyway in some very damaging ways. That should be discouraged.
Thank you for the correction.
If I’ve mis-characterized your words from earlier up-thread, @iiandyiiii, then my apologies to you for that as well.
This goes to highlight that good people can be seen as wrong - or not even - they may simply disagree.
Forget about cancel culture for a moment. Are celebrities entitled to be upset if people insult them and say nasty things about them, or not? Having a lot of money doesn’t stop people having feelings.
This isn’t supposed to be a ‘gotcha’. I’m honestly surprised and disappointed at the attitude you are taking here.
People who receive them believe that they are. Maybe we just have a very different understanding of “cancel culture” and the kind of tactics it applies to its targets. And I appreciate that you draw a distinction. My understanding is that not all do. I’m prepared to just leave it at that.
Let’s say this… when an anonymous nobody misgenders a celebrity on the internet, he is engaging in an attack that can be read by many thousands of people. This attack:
Attacks in a PM, of whatever type, only involve two people, and don’t perpetuate bigotry in others.
If Squidbillie guy Stuart Baker had called Dolly Parton nasty names in a private email, or in conversation with his wife, he’d still have a job. Instead, he decided to display that behavior before the entire world, he wanted everyone to see him attack her, presumably because he thought a lot of people would agree with him. He wanted to influence public opinion against Dolly, and it backfired.
I guess? I just don’t care much. Sometimes some asshole on the road says something nasty to me. It might annoy me but I’m not going to whine about it.
That’s what confuses me about this. Bullying seems different from cancel culture (to me) - someone getting threats is not the same as cancelling them. And it seems like this thread lumps everything together, but I’m going to have different reactions to a celebrity losing a job for making past bigoted remarks than I might have to a celebrity being threatened or a random person losing a job for stupid current actions, or a random person getting privately misgendered or being the subject of public remarks or doxxing (public or private person) or a company being the subject of a boycott or a company making a decision based on public reaction. Are all of those things part of “cancel culture”?
Is Kevin Hart not getting the Oscar gig the same as the guy who was fired for crashing a live news report to yell “fuck her right in the pussy”? Is Taylor Swift getting attacked the same as Louis CK making female comics watch him masturbate? Is a petition against ChickFilA the same as Harvey Weinstein’s consequences?
Right. When Leslie Jones was hounded off of Twitter after Ghostbusters, was that “cancel culture”? Or is it only cancel culture if liberals do it?
The term wasn’t really in use yet, but it was certainly bullying. I’d say it qualifies as cancel culture.
Isn’t “cancelling” a subset of “bullying?” AFAIK, “bullying” is using intimidation to force someone to do something. Threat of being “cancelled” is intimidating.
Also, AFAICT, the reason for said “bullying” is irrelevant. “Bullying” behavior is “bullying.”
So criticizing anyone for doing or saying something worth criticism is now bullying because critcism on the internet might make them feel pressured to change their behavior?
If that’s your position, my conclusion is going to be “so, it looks like sometimes bullying is a good thing.”
So, he’s one step away from no longer being a racist, IMHO. Scientific racism is racism.
The step son of David Duke, he is not a racist. However, he used to be, and will completely admit that he used to be. Maybe Harris can follow in those footsteps. I would actually find it interesting to listen to how Harris came to realize that his views were wrong and harmful, and how he came to change them.
There is always going to be room for disagreement on whether something’s offensive. No matter how offensive 99% of the population finds something, the other 1% can certainly say that it’s not offending them.
Not all contrarian views are offensive. But some are, and if you don’t want to be offensive, then you should apologize if you air them.
I’ve yet to see an example of this.
I have seen people that have claimed that they have nothing to apologize for, and that sometimes has gotten more people upset with them. I’ve seen people who agree with the offensive statement that also claim that the speaker has nothing to apologize for. Not meaning to bring it back to JKR, but she does not think that she has anything to apologize for, even though her words have the potential to cause real harm to real people. That is the case for every one of the people on that letter that has been examined.
Okay, here’s an example that might work for you. I couldn’t find the thread, but a couple years ago some posters were very upset about a joke that Trevor Noah had made years before that. He had apologized for it, and yet, they said that that apology was not enough, and seemed that they would not be satisfied unless he was off the air. I participated in that thread, and found it very frustrating that there was nothing that he could do to make things right for them.
That, I would say would be the sort of example that you are looking for. Except their efforts being successful, of course.
Are people entitled to be upset if celebrities insult them and say nasty things about them, or not?
All of the examples listed were cancel culture? Or just Leslie Jones (Sorry, quoting is a bit weird, and I’m not used to it it yet)
Is the Squidbillies guy going after Dolly Parton and calling her a freakshow slut and telling liberal fans they are unamericans forsaking their own race and to unfollow an example of attempted cancel culture? How about the creators firing him for it? If they are liberals, he directly attacked them, as well as fans. He certainly alienated the fan base. Is Dolly Parton entitled to feel like she’s being bullied/canceled?
To summarize, we can’t agree on a definition of “cancel culture. Nor, “bullying.”
Great.
Has anyone actually given a definition upon which to agree?
Cancel culture: Voicing disagreement with someone along with a bunch of other people.
Bullying: Using your power over others to abuse and harm them.
Do those seem fair?
Here’s an article that claims to answer the question of what Cancel Culture is.
The problem here, of course, is that the definition is terrible. Cancel culture is a culture that cancels, it says.
BUt what the fuck does it mean to cancel someone?
Some examples from the article:
So, someone commits a crime, and people figure out who it is, and as a result, the criminal loses her job and gets charged with a crime.
So far, so good: I’m not concerned.
Digging deeper, the kid shouted, “I hate n--------s!” multiple times on a video. His “apology” was, “Um. F—. I can’t do nothing about it. I can’t do nothing about it. I mean, if you actually like knew me knew me, you’d know that’s not actually what I, like, think. It’s literally just like a meme, which is obviously bad. I know that. But, yeah, you’re right. I can’t deny it. Just please have some mercy, yeah, please -”
So here we have a teenager (Jackson) publicly criticizing another teenager for shouting some pretty wretched stuff. And others contacted the second teen’s prospective college. But the college wrote, “To be clear, we at LSU condemn hate and bigotry in any form, including racially incendiary remarks. As a state university, however, we are subject to constitutional limitation on our ability to take action in response to free speech. That means the freedoms that allow for the current meaningful and poignant protest also protect speech that we may find repulsive and offensive.”
So we have an example where he got publicly shamed for saying some vile shit, and an attempt to deny him his college of choice failed.
Once again, digging into things, it turns out that cancel culture isn’t really canceling people. Instead, when people do or say terrible things, others are saying, “Hold up, you’re going to suffer some public shame for saying those terrible things.” And sometimes, when people commit crimes, they’re not getting away with them.
And that’s all to the good.