Those who did care to click on the links, Linehan also wrote a TV episode with the message that it’s ok to punch trans women because they are basically men anyway and compares the provision of gender-affirming care to trans children to Nazi experiments, dismisses the push for gender self-identification in the U.K. to a campaign led by “privileged white people,” and accuses writer and Transgender Studies Quarterly editor Grace Lavery of “grooming” her university students.
The thread on JKR has plenty of examples. The blog from Linehan I just cited linked to an incident, so I don’t know what you mean. If your belief that he’s wrong hinges on the assumption no transwomen have used their access to hurt women and girls, then it’s time to reassess your belief.
I don’t know Linehan’s rationale for saying TWAW is an existential threat to women, but I do know that redefining “woman” in such a way that permits any male to call himself one and not be questioned means harm will come to women.
This thread should stay focused on cancel culture so I’m not going to litigate gender ideology anymore here.
I know that I am said that I am out, but the utter lack of self awareness in this paragraph really needed to be highlighted.
This is exactly your tactic, in every thread in which I have interacted with you.
If you would like to at some point, actually discuss the content of posts, rather than spend all your time calling out the poster for having the temerity to disagree with you, then there may be some possibility for productive discussion.
But I won’t ask you to change. You do you. I’ll be somewhere else.
There are plenty of reasonable arguments and concerns about access to safe spaces for cis women. There are also lots of people who really, really hate trans people (like Linehan, based on many of the things he’s said, cited by @Taber). Just like it’s important for those of us concerned about the treatment of Palestinians by the Israeli government to make sure we’re not glomming onto, allying with, or defending the arguments and causes of bigots who hate Jews, I think it would be wise for those concerned about access to safe spaces for cis women to take care not to ally with/defend the arguments of anti-trans bigots like Linehan when making their arguments.
I listed the questions you could answer to actually engage in rational discourse. It is curious you quoted everything from my last response to you except the very content that I’m asking you to discuss.
I have always been a believer in evaluating positions based on their own merits rather than focusing on whether those who share those beliefs are sufficiently saintly.
Do I agree with everything Linehan has espoused? It’s highly probable that I don’t. Its a rare person that I can say that about. I came across his blog yesterday and thought it hit on some important points. If he believes transwomen are punchable, then that is worthy of condemnation. We can all agree with that.
Would be good to also get agreement that “punch a TERF” is also condemnable. It’s a popular saying among trans activists and it adds to the perception the movement for is violence against women (it’s telling that feminists are singled out for punching rather than men like Linehan or even all the male predators who victimize them…and why don’t those guys get branded a special name?). If I saw people being “canceled” for this rhetoric, it would be one thing. But I don’t see it happening.
Good point - and that is a challenge these days because it takes effort to be able to identify who is that person who does more harm than good to have on your side. The person concerned about safe spaces for cis women who is not vectoring anti-trans postures is probably the one who does not have the high/easy platform visibility. ('cause that’s not clickbaity. And even then Og knows what unacceptable position they may have on something else entirely…)
Agreed!
The “incident” was a transwomen owning child pornography, which had nothing to do with a transwoman using her status as a women to harm women or girls. He also mentioned two other incidents which also did not have anything to do with a transwoman using her status as a women to harm women or girls.
Considering that a transwoman using her status as a women to harm women or girls is the thing being claimed, (by him and you…) it’s a rather curious choice, no? I’ll take some time to scan through the JKR thread, 2500 posts, ugh, and see for myself what “plenty” looks like.
Why don’t you ask Jessica Yaniv?
https://twitter.com/trustednerd/status/1139022812507561984
Your first link seems to be missing half the story, for some reason. I don’t see what’s so hateful about saying men aren’t women, though. A lot of non-famous, non-influential people (mainly women) were banned from twitter for saying similar things, but no one cares about them because this isn’t about amplifying the voices of the powerless, it’s about enforcing ideological orthodoxy.
We seem to be well into the tangent, if not hijack of this thread so I have to ask, without any agenda but because I’m struggling with understanding the following: What is the point of saying to a trans-woman that she isn’t a woman? Is it to ensure that they don’t get any ideas about being able to share a women’s locker room? Or is it to discourage skeevy men from taking advantage of trans-women’s rights to use a women’s locker room? Or what?
…ask Jessica Yaniv what? Yaniv didn’t mention “blue ticks.” I was talking about blue ticks. Do you know what a blue tick is?
Of course you don’t.
Why would you misgender someone when you didn’t have to? Its simple politeness. Forget about “ideological orthodoxy” for a minute. We have (or at least, we used to have) transgender members here on these boards. Would you deliberately misgender them to their face here, just to hurt them? Or maybe you didn’t do it to “hurt them”, maybe you did it in the name of “scientific accuracy.” Would it be unfair to get sanctioned for that here? And if you thought it was unfair, would you care to explain why?
Yes, there are, and the first problem is that most of the powerful figures on the left refuse to admit it.
About that ‘transphobic organisation’:
…for those not wanting to click the link, YWTF’s summary is largely inaccurate. Lineham, as many in this thread have pointed out, has done more than just do a single thing. And he wasn’t “deplatformed” to “limit his influence.” He was banned because of “repeated violations of (twitters) rules against hateful conduct and platform manipulation”.
Oh no! People have committed the grievous crime of "listening to marginalised communities and changing their minds over something that some consider to be “boringly uncontroversial.” What a crime against humanity.
No point saying it to an individual, but we need to bear the differences in mind when formulating policy. Like who can participate in women’s sports, who should be housed in women’s prisons, and gathering data on the gender pay gap and women’s representation in business and politics. It’s not exactly a success for women or evidence of real change if eg a CEO achieves their high pay and position as a man and then transitions.
But you’re right, it’s a hijack. Sorry.
I will say though, that group I linked to, Women’s Place UK, is an example of an organisation formed by ordinary people that has been subjected to attempts at deplatforming and ‘cancellation’. So it’s not completely off topic.
So you’re saying that the Wachowski sisters don’t get to count the Matrix series as a part of the success of female directors?
It’s not all that curious to me, but perhaps that’s because I’m not walking into the issue oblivious to crime and women’s experience with it. Predators have every incentive to lie about who they are when it opens doors to them that would otherwise be closed. And even if these predators aren’t lying per se, it doesn’t mean they should be treated as women.
The skepticism you are expressing is exactly what Linehan is decrying. Every day we hear about women being raped, murdered, and assaulted. Overwhelmingly these attacks are perpetuated by men who go to extraordinary lengths to find victims. Somehow, though, we’re supposed to believe these men would never ever ever pose as trans to access spaces reserved for naked and vulnerable women?
If we make “woman” equal to whatever a man says it is, it’s naive to assume this won’t be exploited for wrongdoing. It has already happened and it will only continue to happen. So it’s not a question of “if”. It’s a question of “how many women can we tolerate seeing hurt and killed if we scrap single-sex spaces and sex-based protections and move to a system that allows every adult to be treated as a woman at their say so.”
We should probably stop hijacking this thread with the gender issue. @Omar_Little, if you want an answer then please ask me on the JK Rowling thread instead.
For the moment, I’ll play along. do I get to compare this number of women theoretically at risk of being hurt and killed to the what 40% of transsexuals who are factually known to attempt suicide during their lifetimes?
I mean, transsexuals have been around for fucking ever, and dudes have dressed up as women for as long as dudes and women have dressed differently, but you’re scraping up a number of incidents over the last 10 years that could fit on a post-it note. I made it through 1,000 posts of the JKR thread and found incidents involving 2 transsexuals, and like 6 regular old dudes who abused women. The reality is that men can abuse women just fine without pretending to be women. This idea of treating transexuals with decency and respect doesn’t put women at any increased risk. If it did, you’d have more than a handful of incidents to talk about.
I’m willing to respond to this more in depth in the JKR thread. Can you post it there if this is what you want?
Transsexuals (i.e. people who have surgically altered themselves to pass as the opposite sex) are a very small fraction of the transgender population. I don’t see any indication that you’re aware of this. If the gender movement was only focused on affirming the identity of transsexuals, my position would be very different. I take issue with having self-identification be the sole criterion for being treated as the opposite sex.