So...did Jesus go to hell or not?

Great Debates
61

Forumbot wrote:

<<Artemis: Quote tags, please.>>

Well, as soon as you pay for my cable modem or DSL I will. Where I live the phone lines suck. Just posting is a hassle because 90% of the time I get the message “web site not responding”.

<<And this is a discussion on whether or not Jesus went to hell.>>

ForumBot, can you not undestand what you read and post? That was not intended as a pit commentary. Just think about what you just posted.

<<Not on who is right and who is wrong. >>

Realy? Then why all the criticism?

<<Take it to PMs or the Pit, I don’t care. But I’m tired of it polluting my thread.>>

Talk about SANCTIMONIOUS! Let me sum it up for you and everyone else here.

The name of this web site is STRAIGHT DOPE.

The title of this thread is: Did Jesus go to hell or not.

We are talking about RELIGION

THERE IS NO FRICKIN’ STRAIGHT DOPE REGARDING THIS!!!

Well, I guess there is. I believe I could prove to, at least myself, you that there is no heaven/hell, BUT ONLY ONCE!

Let me clue you in on a little secret. THERE IS NO STRAIGHT DOPE regarding verification either way and specifically RELIGION. THEREFORE, everything you read here is strictly OPINION. I don’t give a rats _ss if you are quoting from the bible, Nicene Creed, comic books, or the National Enquirer.

The following is an opinion from ARTEMIUS.

I always wondered why Christians don’t wonder about the years of Jesus from 13-30. I mean, there are so many questions unanswered by history that don’t seem to concern Christians. Why do people believe in him so blindly while others of dfferent faiths believe what they believe?

I think Jesus was (as I’ve stated before), perhaps, the greatest human being to have ever lived. BUT, he was no more the son of god than you or I.

I personally, BELIEVE, he was gifted, but studied other belief paradigms (and originally a disciple of Buddhist doctrine), and awakened at an early age to enlightenment.

I personally, BELIEVE, he returned to the Patestine region because of his heritage and an internal calling. Realizing the political climate and ignorance of the people, and for his knowledge to be transmitted (a better way to live), he had to be extremely crafty, ingenious, and cautious, and rely heavily upon parables.

I personally, BELIEVE, he was and Essene and son of a Zealot. And being the age of 30, he was willing to sacrifice his life for his beliefs. Farfetched? Look at Humas and the other suicidal organizations in this world today.

I personally, BELIEVE, beginning with Saul/Paul, the original scriptures of Jesus began to be heavily altered/edited to portray a supernatural being for less than noble causes.

I hold the Roman Catholic Church responsible for heinous crimes against humanity.

62

Artemius’ discourse is beginning to sound like Uekte without the old folks.

Artie m’lad, if you want to attack me further, please do so in the Pit. I’ll accomodate you there, but no further here.

Polycarp, once again you are the beacon of patient dispute. Would that I had your calm nature (and a few of your brains–you seem to have plenty to spare). Keep up the reasoned fight.

63

Well, that whole crucifixion thing coudn’t have been comfortable…

64

Do you actually ever READ a thread?

It has been pointed out that the “place” in this case is not “hell” in the sense of “the bad place of eternal punishment” but “sheol” or “hades” in the sense of “the realm of death” or death itself. Thus, He did not “go to hell” in the sense of being damned. In any case, since He is God, and God is utterly transcendent (even to the point where the limits of human logic need not apply), He can go where He darn well pleases.

Finally, not a single version of the Nicene Creed states that He went to any sort of “hell”.

As for the spending three days thing–well, the Orthodox Church teaches that He spent three days “in the grave”–that is, dealing with Death. Not because He was limited to do so but because He chose to make it that time. Why three days? Why do we (in a purely ultimate and causal sense and not a proximal sense) tend to have five digits on a hand instead of four or six?

And your final question becomes a complete non-question since the “hell” in this case is not the “place of eternal punishment”.

65

Dogface wrote:

<<Do you actually ever READ a thread?>>

May I make an observation? It is comments such as these (or insinuating someone is ignorant as another example) that invite similar responses for which the latter, it seems, gets accused of making pit commentary.

<<It has been pointed out that the “place” in this case is not “hell” in the sense of “the bad place of eternal punishment” but “sheol” or “hades” in the sense of “the realm of death” or death itself. Thus, He did not “go to hell” in the sense of being damned. In any case, since He is God, and God is utterly transcendent (even to the point where the limits of human logic need not apply), He can go where He darn well pleases.>>

From reading these threads I do not think you can make the case that Jesus is, indeed, God, unless one concedes that we are all God.

<<As for the spending three days thing–well, the Orthodox Church teaches that He spent three days “in the grave”–that is, dealing with Death. Not because He was limited to do so but because He chose to make it that time. >>

What exactly does this mean? Was he actually dead (his body decaying) or in some sort of suspended animation and his soul was hovering nearby. It becomes very confusing. And how do you know what he was thinking (…He chose…). Is there a scripture quote for that?

66

Is there a Scripture quote that states that one is only to refer to Scripture when elucidating doctrine?

67

There are some definite and intelligent points bing made here.

First, a point made by a wise newbie in another thread and by Artemius here: in matters of religion, there is no definite answer to matters of faith which all participants will agree on.

However, there are some definitive answers that can be dealt with. First, the question raised in the thread title did not arise in a vacuum; it was based either on the line “He descended to Hell” in the traditional Apostles’ Creed, that affirmation’s expansion in some dogmatic statement somewhere, or the artistic and literary works based on it. Therefore there is a factual answer to, not the question “Did Jesus go to Hell?” but rather “What did the early church mean by saying he did?” Whether or not they were right in asserting it, what they meant by it does have a definite meaning that can be pinned down. I.e., distinguish between the Jewish/Greek conception of Sheol/Hades and the modern meaning of Hell; the creed referenced the first – the second had not yet evolved; but the artist’s rendering of the “Harrowing of Hell” is a metathesis from the first meaning to the seond.

Secondly, we got into the question “Who in Hell (;)) was Jesus, anyway?” About this, there will of course be divergent opinions. But there are some “facts” – bearing in mind that the Gospels are not unbiased reportage but polemic documents advancing four points of view about the answer – and that there are many other answers ranging from “totally fictitious” to “supernatural apparition” advanced by others. But the construction one puts on those “facts,” along with the degree of credence one gives them, is yet another matter of personal judgment.

Finally, my bizarre sense of humor gave me a skewed answer to the question, and I hope Artemius will not be offended but get a chuckle out of it:

“Did Jesus go to Hell?”
“No, to Tibet!” :smiley:

68

You are playing games now and you know it.

But, I suppose not if one were to concede it all boils down to a matter of faith and not fact. And exactly who is qualified to elucidate doctrine which, in turn, is not based on factual evidence? That’s a mighty big responsibility. Isn’t that how we end up with Jim Jone’s, David Koresh’s, and other nuts like them (NO!! I am not directing that towards you or anyone here!) because so much is open to interpretation. And let’s throw out Mr. Jones and Mr. Koresh and just talk about all the other interpretations of church doctrine that lead to all the different denominations and disagreement even on core issues such as the crucifixion/resurrection and who goes to heaven/hell.

At any rate. Me thinks I’ll move on from this thread. Besides, wouldn’t want Mr. Geezer to get it in his head I was attacking him. He, he.

69

Artemius- The rule of the STRAIGHT DOPE is also not to be a jerk.

A rule you are clearly violating. Try to tone it down and grind your axe elsewhere while those that like discussing things intellectually and civily can do so. (keep in mind that some of the posters in this thread as well as myself are athiests, and can still be civil when discussing things like this) (which in fact is more “does historical documents suggest that Jesus wen’t to hell?” rather than “Jesus is real and you athiests are going to burn in hell”- I know, its a hard fact to accept)

Other than that, interesting thread.

70

Uh, that last post of mine was directed at Dogface.