I’m a bit confused by this whole sacrifice thing.
When he died, did he go to hell, and absorb everyone’s sins? Or did he go to heaven and sort of difuse the sins?
I’m a bit miffed if he went to Heaven. Not much of a sacrifice, if you ask me.
Note: I’m just a curious atheist.
Religious discussions belong in Great Debates.
Off to Great Debates.
DrMatrix - GQ Moderator
From my understanding, Jesus’s days after death went kind of like this. Die. Rise after a three day nap. Go and visit friends for a bit. Go to heaven. Get permission to launch a rescue mission of all the pious souls in Hell (Gehena) (SIC.) Return to heaven with Moses, Elijah, Aaron, Abel, Abraham, etc etc et al ad nausium in tow. Set up internet forum to plan return.
Just my $.02. PS: I’m a kinda-sorta Catholic.
From the Nicene Creed:
But there is a significant difference between the Nicene Creed and the Apostles’ Creed, on this very point:
Does the wording of the Apostles’ Creed simply mean death? or does it mean Jesus went to hell? and if the latter, why? From this question came the concept of the Harrowing of Hell: that Jesus descended to Hell to free the righteous who had died before his Passion, thus affirming that he brought salvation to all, not just to those who heard the Gospel message after his time on earth.
The fact that God’s helping out humanity wasn’t particularly difficult is a poor reason to critique a religion, IMHO.
Why was Moses in Hell ? I thought that Moses was one of the good guys - with the tablets and the phophesies and what-not…
Can someone explain ?
Oh, I think Stemba was having a bit of fun. But still, great videogame concept!
I believe that a valid interpretation of ‘hell’ is not exactly fire and brimstone and little red devils with pitchforks - but rather, just non-heaven. What that means, who knows? Perhaps just death - an eternity of emptiness, or just non-awareness.
In otherwords, the choice is between ‘perishing’ or having ‘eternal life’. Heaven and hell.
Ah… now I hear it… Whoosh
Actually, while Stemba did josh around a bit, this part is entirely in accord with tradition, which states that everyone was in hell prior to Jesus’s death. He went to hell and fetched the guys worthy of heaven (Abraham, Moses, etc), including the guy hanging on the cross next to him (And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. Luke 23:43), and brought them to paradise.
Wasn’t some guy snatched up to heaven in a whirlwind?
Hmm… maybe Jesus’s day on the cross was suffering equal to that of everyone else in hell? I don’t know.
Elijah went up in a chariot of flames (or a flaming chariot, I can’t remember), if that’s who you’re thinking of. I never said the Bible, Judeo-Christian tradition and all that jazz had impeccable internal logic and consistency.
Speaking from an art history perspective… the subject of the Harrowing of Hell, or the Anastasis, is quite common in Byzantine and medieval art. It can be seen depicted in such examples as a mosaic from St. Mark’s basilica, Venice.
The idea is that after the Fall (i.e., after Adam and Eve disobeyed God and ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil), humanity was barred from entering paradise because of the stain of Original Sin. Until Christ’s sacrifice, all of humanity was confined to Hell in the sense of Hell as separation from God. All the souls of the “righteous” dead, e.g., Abraham, Moses, Adam and Eve, etc., etc., were placed in Limbo–a special level of Hell, but Hell nonetheless (traditionally, unbaptized babies are still stuck in Limbo, as they died before Original Sin could be washed away. Righteous pagans are also there, as Dante famously depicts in the Inferno).
These souls were released from Limbo by Christ’s redemption of humanity’s sin on the cross, an event which is described in very literal ways in Byzantine and medieval art and literature: Christ is shown knocking down the door of Hell (the Devil is crushed underneath), grabbing onto the wrists of Adam and/or Eve, and yanking them and all the other righteous souls up with him to Paradise (the Good Thief,as Priceguy mentioned, is often represented accompanying Christ).
I think there’s some debate about how literally we should interpret the Harrowing of Hell–or Limbo itself, for that matter.
But I’ll leave that to the theologians to discuss.
You need to draw the distinction betwen Sheol, the plac to which the deceased go in Judaism (or at least in the First Century beliefs on which New Testament teachings are based) and the Christian concept of Hell. The latter is the permanent destination of unrepentant sinners according to traditional Christian doctrine. Sheol, on the other hand, was the destination of all men at their death, and was divided into Abraham’s Bosom, where the righteous received consolation, and Torments, where the wicked received their just punishment. And the latter was not considered a permanent, eternal state. One of our Orthodox Jews can explain this more clearly than I can.
The traditional Christian teaching is that Jesus, dying as a man, went down to Sheol as do all men, and brought forth the righteous to their reward in Heaven with God Himself. That’s why the “He descended to Hell” clause in the traditional version of the Apostles’ Creed, and why the emendation to “He descended to the dead” in modern-language versions.
All references to going to heaven or hell are purely symbolic. Heaven or hell is right here on earth. The choice is yours (I didn’t say it was easy though). I believe it was Buddha who said that we are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts, we make the world. Jesus was trying to teach this to the disciples albeit in parable form because a) his concepts were extremely radical for the time, b) people were extremely uneducated and superstitious, and c) people were in a fevered pitch for a messiah at the time and Jesus had to be extremely careful in his attempt to teach people a different way to think and live. IMO, the disciples never quite got the big picture.
The sheol interpretation is the one also taught by the Orthodox Church. The Church teaches that the Lord went “to Death” (Hades, Sheol) and thereby conquered it.
Yes, he conquered death so that he may live again for all of us. However, before his crucifixian, everyone didn’t go to hell. Their faith in God and by following the commandments and laws, got them there. Those that believed. That is why when he said “It is finished,” then died, the curtain to the temple was torn in two, meaning no longer did we need animal sacrifices, et al to be in step with the commandments. All we have to do, to get to Heaven, is to believe in him, ask him into our heart, follow him and do this with a pure heart. There are no more works necessary in order to get to Heaven.
Oh, and I agree, the disciples were a little spacey at times lol.
<<…meaning no longer did we need animal sacrifices, et al to be in step with the commandments.>>
Does anyone here besides me see how utterly ignorant the notion is of sacrificing animals in order to please a so-called god?
<<All we have to do, to get to Heaven,…>>
…is to realize heaven or hell is right here and now. The choice is ours to make.
<<…is to believe in him,>>
Which didn’t mean “him” specifically, but in what he was teaching, IMHO.
<<…ask him into our heart, follow him and do this with a pure heart. There are no more works necessary in order to get to Heaven.>>
Allow his teachings into our heart.
Have you actually read this thread? It has been pointed out SEVERAL times that the “hell” in this case is not the “hell” of “eternal damnation” but “sheol” or “hades”, the “land of the dead”. Christ is the necessary bridge, the only sufficient means. If personal faith on its own were sufficient before the Incarnation, then the Incarnation was ultimately meaningless, worthless, and unnecessary.
