Considering the kind of people who at the time were the ones declaring other people criminals and “undesirables”, well, it’s not all that surprising.
I rather expect the same applies now; I doubt a nation composed of the people ICE and Trump don’t like would be all that bad.
Cultures change all the time. We can’t go back to the cultures we had a hundred, or a thousand, years ago, and we won’t have anything like today’s culture a hundred, or a thousand years from now. Changes, and mixing, of cultures is inevitable, and if any aspects of a culture are valuable, they will be preserved in some way or another. If not, not.
Don’t condemn people to live in a fake, role-playing historical culture that prevents them from moving forward to the future.
Since day 1 the USA has had customs duties.
Not really, like I have said customs duties were really important until WW1, and even today are significant.
But yes, there were few restrictions on Immigration, as long as you were coming from Europe.
I’m pretty sure most people wouldn’t consider custom duties to be about “open borders”. It’s always been about the terrible fear of letting non-white or otherwise “inferior” people in, not customs.
Yes, that is what the MAGAs call Open borders, but of course it is more complicated than that.
Not really. That’s the part people actually care about. It’s always been about American bigotry.
The way the US became one of the strongest economies in the world was precisely by letting in all of those people. Begging them to come, in fact.
If you want a strong/growing economy, you need workers. Those who oppose immigration because it would lead to a flood of “undesirables” ruining the place or its “culture”, it is not the economy they are concerned about, or, if they are, it is because they are plutocrats, who have their own particular interests.
Re culture… yes, I think it lies somewhere between both sides:
Total melting pot: Works in some societies, such as the US, in which all are (theoretically and ideally) welcome and there is a general culture that welcomes assimilation while tolerating and perhaps even celebrating a variety of subcultures. The culture ends up not being destroyed because what everyone can enjoy in common is robust enough and strong enough.
Most societies, however, are not built for this, and trying to implement it would result in the death of the local culture. I gave the example of Japan. If Japan were suddenly 20% immigrants, which the economy could almost certainly absorb and might even need at this point, the local culture would be transformed overnight. “Implode” might be the correct word. The biggest reason is that the immigrants would not be able to learn Japanese.
Walled garden: OTOH, treating a local culture as a sacred, unchanging entity has its own detriments. A culture can end up being fake, mostly for tourists, or hollowed out. It can become a burden to its own residents: e.g., forcing everyone to learn and preserve a language whether they want to or not (cough, Quebec). It can become a dog whistle cause when the real desire is to preserve racial or ethnic purity, etc.
I neither totally love nor hate it, but the next few hundred years on planet earth are going to result in a great cultural and linguistic leveling. This is simply the path of least resistance. At the same time, transcontinental cultures will probably also develop in which anyone can choose to participate or not (things like fandoms, language communities, and so on).
Through immigration, absolutely. Through unrestrained, true “open borders” immigration? Cite?
It never has been. Every time they’ve passed laws to curb immigration, it was for racial reasons. Usually very explicitly so.
There is a whole lot of problems immigrants to Japan have to deal with, but “not [being] able to learn Japanese” is not one of them. It is just a language— you put in the time, and you can learn it [yes, I too have learned Japanese and it is apparently not a dialect of Martian]. On the contrary, to a Japanese xenophobe, it does not matter if you speak perfectly fluent Japanese— the point is that you are not “Japanese”.
Is it a problem if immigrants and/or whoever know some weird languages and cook some bizarre cuisine? I would not be surprised if you told me 20% of Americans speak Spanish. So what?
I don’t get that argument. People tend to segregate by culture. Unchecked immigration would probably result in several unassimilated cultures. The way we have Mexicotown, but on a bigger scale. US culture would still exist, it would just exist alongside other cultures. Pretty much the way it does now. In fact, for quite a while now, we’ve had pretty close to unchecked immigration into the US, so we already have a pretty good idea of what that would look like. And it’s fine. Or it would be, if people weren’t xenophobic.
I don’t agree, though it’s a fun thing to debate. But let’s take your “put in the time” condition as true and complete: I’ve heard it estimated that learning Japanese (among other very difficult languages) takes three times the time it takes to learn an Indo-European language, and that sounds about right to me. Learning any language takes a lot of time, effort, and discipline, so this factor alone will prevent a lot of people from learning Japanese. If you’ve lived in Japan, you know that only a tiny percentage of “foreigners” ever become any good at all.
And not just xenophobes. That’s just the default setting of the Japanese mind, effortlessly absorbed from, well, being Japanese themselves in that culture. Now I love Japanese people (I work with them every day) and Japanese culture, but it just isn’t one “designed” to assimilate outsiders.
Not to you and me and most reasonable people in the US.
And British Bigotry and French Bigoty, and Italian bigotry and Japanese Bigotry, and … and…
Are there any significant nations that have open borders? I mean the EU has more or less Open Borders (to an extent) with other EU nations, but there have been mass protests and stoppages of “others” such as Africans in those nations.
Yes, and depending on the country, that’s been more or less of a problem. In France, according to what I’ve read/seen on the topic, it’s been a monumental problem, with huge ghettos of Muslims who have limited job prospects. In contrast, in the US, especially in Michigan, there has been a lot of Arab immigration with very few problems (that I’ve heard of).
I think there are other factors as well beyond the mindsets and intentions of individuals. There is also government policy, etc., as evidenced by the fucked up situation in France.
Yeah, I love Dearborn, which to my understanding has the largest population of Arab immigrants outside of the Middle East. This is a really interesting and vibrant area from an immigration perspective, and as I mentioned in the America thread, the food is unparalleled. I’m not really joking, I think food is a huge part of culture the world over and it’s something special to be able to share in the cuisine of so many cultures.
Then there’s U of M, which, at least when I attended twenty years ago, had a huge population of international students which significantly increased the quality of every student’s education and I am so damned sad to see that discouraged with our current administration. It is a genuine loss to the student body for everyone at a university to be the same.
I very nearly went into immigration, majored in Spanish, worked at some immigrant-serving nonprofits, but eventually I settled in services to victims of crime (which also includes immigrants, but we don’t see too many at my agency and I haven’t spoken Spanish in years.) Sometimes I’m relieved I’m not in that field anymore because it would be so hard right now, even harder than it is for victim service providers. Bless 'em for what they’re doing.
Why wouldn’t the immigrants be able to learn Japanese? Doesn’t it seem more likely that the biggest reason Japan might implode is because of their own xenophobia?
You live in the US, and I’m sure you’ve met many people from elsewhere who speak little to no English. Sometimes it’s because they haven’t been here that long, sometimes it’s because they don’t have the knack for it, and sometimes it’s because they just don’t feel like doing it.
Mexicans start out with the same alphabet we do, and vice versa. Japanese requires you to learn the hiragana and katakana syllabaries, which would be challenging enough (46 characters apiece), but also 3,000+ Chinese characters (kanji) in order to be literate. Learning this system is time-consuming and difficult for Japanese people as well: a Japanese high school student typically still finds it difficult to read a newspaper.
So yeah, saying it’s just a language and put in the time–true, but it’s a lot of time and effort. Both for Japanese people and “foreigners.”
From what I’ve heard about Germany today, there are young people who are basically saying “fuckit” to German and are speaking English with each other, at least in certain contexts. And these are natives who know German.
You import enough non-natives to Japan, and they are not going to learn Japanese–it would take them years even if they tried hard–and they are going to form their own expat/immigrant community that circumvents all that (as is currently being done by many communities in many nations), and they would not assimilate. Not most of them. You’d instantly have another nation within Japan.
What I said to DPRK
Good post. I agree completely. Muslims in the US do well and we all benefit from their presence. There is also a huge Sikh community on the southside in Indianapolis. One of the biggest Burmese communities in the US as well. Everyone gets along. This is one of the great things about the US. Other countries don’t do it so well.