yo’babe - Gore began asking for uniform standards for the manual recounts fairly early in the game - IIRC, he asked for uniform standards in the first FL SC go-around. (They ignored the request, and as far as I can tell, imposing a uniform standard would indeed have been writing new law, as opposed to resolving a conflict among statutes.)
I’m sticking with ‘Commander-In-Thief’, myself.
And the answer to the thread title (Freedom, Sam Stone, and trollroyj notwithstanding) is, we’ve known for weeks that Gore won Florida. We just want the evidence out there in exhaustive detail, so everybody else knows it, too.
Well, RTFirefly answered this, but it bears repeating because what you say is such a ridiculous rewriting of history! The Bush side never asked for uniform standards…they asked for the hand recounts to be halted pure and simple. The FSU asked them what remedies might be possible…recount the whole state for example? (Don’t know if they asked specifically about uniform standards…but maybe that would have seemed sort of silly, since as RTFirefly notes, it was the Gore side that was begging the FSU to set a standard. The Bush side would have none of it.
To suggest that at any time, there could have been hand recounts if Gore had been more reasonable somehow is a bunch of hogwash! Bush wanted the hand recounts stopped, period. End of story. And, perhaps we will soon know why!
OK, so I was mistaken about Bush asking for uniform standards, so that a handcount could be held to them. But the Bush people were complaining about no uniform standards (among other complaints/concerns about the chaos down there in FLA) and therefore, they wanted to halt the count. I heard many Bush supporters complaining about no uniform standard when Broward was counting, and changing their standards mid-stream. I did not hear the Gore supporters/Gore “side” making simular complaints about Broward. But then, Gore benefitted from Broward’s change of standards, Bush did not.
I guess what prompted my comment was that earlier in this thread, some of you Gore supporters were complaining about the unfairness of different standards. And how one county counted ballots with a certain type of error, while another county threw these same type of ballots out - therefore losing votes for Gore. (As if this was the first time such a horrible thing had happened.) And I am amused, since this is exactly what Bush supporters were concerned and complaining about when Broward was countin’ up those dimples and pimples for Gore. Oh. But it was OK with all of you in that instance, wasn’t it?
Bush opposed any counting of the undervotes, standards be damned. Odds are, any standards whatsoever will favor Gore, the more votes are counted, dimples, pimples, whatever, the more are likely to end up in the Gore column because more undervotes occured in the less affluent counties, the counties that used the punch card/machine approach. The less affluent counties tend to be more Dem than Pub.
All that standards stuff is just smoke and mirrors, BushCo opposed all counts period. And for good reason, they would have lost. And the “dimple,pimple” crapola is just that: is anyone suggesting that the voter didn’t cause the dimple to happen? Then how did it get there? Voodoo?
It is possible, though not probable, that “Landslide” George actually won Florida, fair and square. The current examination of ballots, as conducted by Miami Herald and others will most likely resolve that question.
My bet is that Gore won the popular vote in Florida. I further bet the Pubs will find some excuse to pretend that it ain’t so.
But it is. And they did steal the election. And I and others demand that that truth be known. Justice will not be done, that one is over. But truth will out.
Bush wanted the recounts stopped because of diffrent standards. Even if he didn’t the recounts should have been stopped because of the diffrent standards. If Gore had not tried to use diffrent standards to his favor and had actually tried to make it fair then they probably would have been able to recount on time.
In other words, “I will keep repeating this no matter how many people prove to me that it is wrong.” And, no matter that it was Gore who asked the FSU to give the counties a uniform standard.
No, I agree that a uniform standard would have been a good thing (although I do have trouble with the claim that the lack of a completely uniform standard is more of a violation of “equal protection” than the huge discrepancy in the percent of unrecorded votes between counties that use this punch system and those that use better systems).
Now, what that uniform standard should be (or should have been) is another question altogether and not one that I am prepared to answer…nor I think should you be unless you have a lot more experience with these ballots than most. If I was a judge, I would have asked them to bring me several different punching machines, hundreds of unpunched ballots to “play” with, and some actual disputed ballots to look at so I could arrive at some reasonable standard by actually seeing how these things worked and, e.g., how likely one was to end up with a dimple when one didn’t mean to punch at all or when one did mean to punch. In my opinion, for people on either side to get too huffy about what ought to be counted as “the intent of the voter” without having done this sort of experimentation is just sort of basing one’s opinion on ignorance.
That is not my recollection. Bush cited the lack of standards as one of many reasons why he didn’t want recounts. That does not indicate (at least to me) that he felt “standards be damned”. You just think that’s what he really meant. Maybe you’re using Voodoo to read his mind?
That’s not my recollection. If that were true, why did Gore’s side try to sue some counties (like Palm Beach, if memory serves?) to change to a more lax standard? Palm Beach’s numbers were relatively disappointing for Gore, because they were not counting every dimple and pimple. Broward raked in the votes, because they had a more lax dimple/pimple standard. Therefore, Gore wanted Palm Beach to use Broward County’s standards…if memory serves. So…I guess Gore did want a more “uniform standard” - one that would be more likely rake in more votes for him.
Fingernail of partisan canvassing board member, perhaps? (Hey - these accusations have been made - I’m not taking them entirely seriously, but still…) A voter not being able to decide which one they want, and deciding to not vote for either at the last minute. All sorts of reasons. The fact is, YOU can’t read these peoples’ minds, and know that every dimple and pimple was a vote. No one can. I watched the Sanders Sauls trial - from the evidence given, it looks pretty damned difficult for someone to not make a punch if they want to. And Judge Sauls obviously felt the same way about it, and did not order a recount.
You can wish that all those dimples and pimples were votes for “your guy”, but that doesn’t mean everyone else does. Doesn’t mean Palm Beach County thought every dimple and pimple was a vote, doesn’t mean Judge Sauls thought so…a lot of people didn’t see it that way. Some Democrats (Sauls and PBC) didn’t think so.
Jshore I remember actually seeing Bush on TV from a very democratic source no less saying the reason why he wanted to stop the recounts because there were diffrent standards so yes I will.
Asmodean and Yosemitebabe, don’t you know enough about politicians by now to unquestioningly believe that Bush’s stated reasons were his real ones? Please.
I think the only way we’ll know who really won is if Elian Gonzales, riding on the back of a mighty dolphin, alights on a beach in Florida, bringing the Light to this nation which has been plunged into darkness.
Oh, I don’t believe that Bush is a saint. I’m sure he just wanted the damned thing over. He was ahead, after all. He was ahead several times, as a matter of fact. Who can blame him for wanting it over? I’m sure Gore would want it over as well, if he kept on (consitently) ending up ahead.
On the same note, I’m sure you’re not naive enough to believe that “every vote counts” either, when it would have been OK with many of you to throw out entire counties’ absentee ballots, in the name of some stupid “irregularity” that was in no way the fault of the voter, and in no way altered anyone’s votes. “Voter intent” be damned in that case, eh?
I never believed he won that state. When Gore conceded the first time, I’d already been to bed, so I never had to doubt. Then when I heard all the shameful tricks they pulled, I had no reason to ever suspect Bush had won anything.
Elvisl1ves nice arguement there. However it doesent counter my statement. I don’t unquestioningly believe but i dont unquestioningly disbelieve either. Bush said that he wanted them stopped because of diffrent standards, he never did anything to show otherwise. Therefore he wanted them stopped because of different standards and the fact that he was ahead.
When are you folks going to face up to the fact that my mom lost the election for Gore by not reading the directions on her ballot? It’s all her fault.
I think that a FOIA request on the ballots will be unrevealing. First, in most cases a FOIA can be photocopied. Second, a request to see the actual ballots will result in the ballots themselves being altered, by handling alone, if not by nefarious purpose. When it comes to ballot counting, it was so dang close that we just can’t know.
But fraud, on the other hand, well that doesn’t sit well in the human craw. Those who would alter the course of elections tend to be a vocal minority, either bragging to supposedly trusted friends or openly speaking of such things after the fact. We’ll hear those stories, eventually–stories of “lost” ballot boxes winding up in the attics of senile Floridians, stories of intimidators at the polls, stories of C-130s flying through hurricanes with unpostmarked ballots. It’s the stuff of legend, but I prefer to blame my mom.
Of all the disingenuous arguments made in the Florida debacle (and they were a-flyin’ thick and heavy from both sides), the idea that these ballots are fragile little things that would magically register a vote if overhandled is the most ludicrous one. I have worked with punch cards before, and they are designed to be handled manually without any data alterations. They are made of stiff cardstock, the chads are very small and difficult to punch out without some sort of stylus. Chads often hang by a corner or two, and even detached chads frequently stick to the card because of static charges. The little piles of detached chads Republicans made much of during the hand counts are absolutely normal. I would be suspicious if there weren’t little piles of detached chads. Picking up a ballot by the corners and peering at it is not going to magically dimple chad number 5, nor is anything short of deliberate effort.
(Hey - these accusations have been made - I’m not taking them entirely seriously, but still…) A voter not being able to decide which one they want, and deciding to not vote for either at the last minute. All sorts of reasons. The fact is, YOU can’t read these peoples’ minds, and know that every dimple and pimple was a vote. No one can. I watched the Sanders Sauls trial - from the evidence given, it looks pretty damned difficult for someone to not make a punch if they want to. And Judge Sauls obviously felt the same way about it, and did not order a recount.