SoulSearching - Like Rhythmdvl I don’t disagree with any of the other advice. But I just wanted to mention that I was in a somewhat similar situation as you 4 years ago. I had crappy job prospects that I blamed on only having a B.A. I wanted to go back to graduate school, but my GPA was bad. So I took the LSAT. I did well on it and that was what prompted me to go to law school. My poor GPA and my having to work full-time were severe limitations on my choice of schools, but I did well and am about to graduate.
You’re probably expecting either a “And it all worked out for the best!” or “And I hate my decision”, but unfortunately I haven’t take the bar yet nor explored job options. But I just wanted to at least let you know that there are other humans out there in similar situations.
For the record, I avoided debt by attending a bottom-tier non-ABA law school (although it is CBA accredited, allowing me to sit for the CA bar).
If I could echo one piece of advice from others, it would be to get a law-related job at some point in your law school career, which I was unable to do - and now I will feel totally unprepared should I actually pass the bar and find myself job-hunting.
I know a PhD-Chemistry/JD patent lawyer currently looking for a job. And he hasn’t been able to find what he wants to do yet in the place he wants to do it.
I’d like to just point out an interesting point. The OP uses the phrase “I want to attend law school” 5 or 6 times.
He never says “I want to be a lawyer”.
There’s an old saying “School is where people go to escape life for a while.”
Oh I certainly didn’t mean to suggest a science BS/JD would be an automatic ticket to wealth and fame. I remember my surprise at how tough the competition was for public interest law at charities and organizations that paid dirt. Unless you plan on hanging out your shingle, when you get out of law school you’re gonna do whatever someone is willing to pay you to do.
And I remember the guy on law review who had no offers and finally admitted, “You know, I think I might have to start taking this personally.”
Just think it might tilt things ever so slightly in the direction of law. What the world certainly doesn’t need is any more unemployed PolSci/SpCom/Phil grads who decide to go to law school because “everyone says I’m smart and I like to argue!”
For what it’s worth, I did exactly that. My GPA in undergrad was dismal to the point of laughability, a good deal lower than the OP’s, but I made up my mind to do a 180 in law school, busted my ass for the first time since elementary school, graduated Salutatorian of my class, and scored a federal judicial clerkship after graduation.
There were a lot of factors as to why I made the turnaround; the material and setting were much, much more suited to my way of thinking, I immersed myself in the work, and I realized that this was the last hoorah of my academic career and if I was ever going to prove myself I absolutely had to do it now, last chance. Also, unlike undergrad, I didn’t live in a frat house full of drunks and didn’t spend every evening rehearsing and playing in my rock band.
See, I don’t get that. As a lawyer you go where you want, hang your shingle and start working. That’s what I did and I love it. Sure it is tough going it alone but if the prestige firm is not where you want to be or they won’t hire you, you just set up shop. If you are good at what you do, you will be successful. There are so many BAD lawyers out there that if you are good, you definitely will be successful. I made more money the first four months in private practice than I did the prior year working at a firm. Now I pay about as much in taxes per year as I ever made per year working for a firm.
For the OP’s benefit, there are two chief benefits are a tech/science background that I know of for law students:
1.) They tend to do very well on the “logic games” portion of the LSAT, and
2.) Once they get out of law school, they have some unique career options available. For example, my understanding is that a hard science or engineering degree is absolutely required to practice patent law.
So that’s worth considering, if you have a science background - but as far more experienced and knowledgeable people than I have already said, it guarantees nothing.
He isn’t interested in working for himself, and he’s discovered he’s ill suited for partnership type practice. So he wants to work in the Twin Cities practicing corporate side patent law. That means 3M, Medtronic, a few other places. He’s currently employed, he’s just looking because the few jobs available doing what he wants to do where he wants to do it haven’t opened.
Another thought- Soulsearching, have you considered how you’d pay for law school? A lot of schools - mine included - do not allow full-time first-year law students to hold a job. At all. You’re expected to live off your savings, student loans, or (almost always) both. So if you did get in to a school with that sort of policy, you might want to consider entering as a part-time student. Do not play games with your school’s policies - if you need an exception, see if you can work something out with your Dean of Students. But my point is that, if you enter law school as a full-time student, your online business may need to go on hiatus for a while.
So he wants to be house counsel for a limited number of firms in a relative backwater for patent law?( I did a quick check there are many many jobs in CA, WV, IL, D.C. and many more in NY) That explains his difficulty.
I agree with almost everything in this thread; however, this comment prompts a “really?” on my part.
Aren’t pre-law majors generally pretty soft, like poli sci or history or english? Not that those couldn’t be challenging at the right school, but in general, they tend to be much more relaxed then engineering or science programs.
Oh, I didn’t say it couldn’t be done - but you have to really be motivated. I think it’s a lot easier for people who have been busting their asses all along and are in the habit.
First, a question: are you an underrepresented minority? If so, *some *of the advice in this thread does not apply to you (but much of it still does).
Assuming you are white or asian, this thread is full of good advice. You should also read this.
A few things that haven’t been said:
You can’t go back and take more undergrad classes to boost your GPA. Even getting a second degree would change nothing. For application purposes, your GPA is not calculated by law schools. It is calculated by LSAC and it is based on your first 8 semesters of undergraduate performance (or something very similar, I haven’t looked it up recently). Additionally, it is this GPA that schools must report for their US News rankings, which is why it’s difficult to overcome even if you do really well in some post-baccalaureate course of study.
Part-time students are not counted as part of US News rankings, so admissions for these programs are considerably less numbers-focused. Georgetown is probably the best school with a quality part-time program. That would be a good target to shoot for. It is popular among high-LSAT low-GPA students who’ve worked a bit after undergrad.
IMHO, whether going to a non-top school is right for you depends largely on what you want to do with your degree. From what I’ve seen, some doors are virtually closed–you likely won’t ever work for a top firm, be a law professor, work at an international organization, or work at a high-level public interest organization unless you happen to score a clerkship with Clarence Thomas. Doing all of those things are difficult even for graduates of Harvard and Yale, but nearly impossible for graduates of regional law schools. If, on the other hand, you want to do one of the hundreds of other things lawyers do, you could be alright. But law school is no longer the safe option is used to be, if it ever was.
After reading the responses I have a few more things to add:
I’m not making excuses for my undergrad GPA, but merely offering an explanation as to why my “coasting” turned into such a disaster. I received an WF in a course worth 3 classes because I was dropped by the professor (whom everyone hated consistently had one of the lowest student ratings) by exceeding my 5th absence (5 month semester). A difficult course, I had maintained a B throughout the semester where maybe only 30% of the class had an A or B. I was dropped ONE week before FINALS for violating the attendance policy. This was the first time ever I had seen it enforced. I know it’s my fault, but just wanted to offer an explanation. Either way, I coasted throughout college and deserve the final results.
I seem to be getting responses pertaining to laziness and inability for committed work as a detriment to my law school aspirations. While that was true, as I mentioned in great detail, it is no longer the case. Call it an epiphany, maybe I was struck by lightning. Point is, yes I definitely know what I would be getting myself into and in a sense, welcome the workload and challenges as if retribution for past letdowns. I look forward to working hard in an academic setting.
The money aspect is really not a concern. I would want to attend full-time to graduate in 3 years. I don’t mind getting into debt if accepted into a top tier school which demands it. Also, I don’t wish to attend law school to become a lawyer to make big bucks and get rich. The salary aspect is perhaps the least of my intent. As mentioned in my 2nd post, I have an online activity similar that of a full-time job with minimal time input needed. Becoming a lawyer and regretting it for lack of high pay or the debt really isn’t an issue.
Funny thing about the LSAT, I took portions of a practice test once in high school when my mother erroneously purchased a test booklet instead of SAT. Didn’t know my score, but got nearly all of the questions correct in the logic section. Should have seen the look on my face when upon realization that I was studying for the wrong test.
Does anyone know if taking additional classes, despite having graduated, counts towards my undergrad GPA? If I have a 2.71 and BA in Finance right now and take 15 hours of A’s in hose manure courses next spring, would my transcript and official GPA be higher. I know it sounds kind of dirty but then again, I’m applying to law school and wish to become a lawyer…
I don’t know why, but those two quotes make me suspicious of your objectivity…
I take that back, I do know why, but this is not the Pit so I won’t go in to it.
Funny, but you seem to be reading different responses than I. And expect law school - and prospective employers - to be even less sympathetic than this bunch.
I don’t know why you’re suspicious. It is true that GPA is much less of a liability for URM candidates and also true that Clarence Thomas takes clerks from lower-ranked schools than the rest of the justices. Implying that I’m a racist is just as inappropriate as calling me one, so I’d suggest that if you’d like to do either you should take it to the Pit.
I can only speak from my experience here, and as always, YMMV. But thinking back to my own undergrad days, this was a common misperception.
It’s true that engineering and science students always seemed to be busy with labs and reports and problem sets and similar things. But at our school, at any rate, none of these things counted for much of the student’s overall grade. Oh they did count, but the sheer volume of them meant that none of them could count for much. If you completely blew a few, your final grade wasn’t much affected. Compared to this, the English, history, and poli sci students seemed to have it soft: turn in an research essay by the end of the year and write an exam. There were some differences–maybe there would be two papers and an exam, or maybe a midterm test. But pretty easy right?
Not quite. Assuming we’re working on the “essay and exam” model, consider the following:
– You have two, and only two, opportunities to earn a grade. Blow either one, and you’re probably getting an F in the course. So you’d better do each right the first time–there are no makeups, no doing better on the next assignment. Very similar to law school.
– Essays tend to be due by the end of term, just before finals. If all your courses require an essay and exam, then you can’t leave things to the last minute. If you’re going to prepare well for finals, you have to have those essays out of the way with enough time to prepare. So time management, organization, and prioritization become vital skills acquired (usually) the hard way. Again, skills that are vital at law school.
Now, do this well enough and consistently enough through your undergrad to get the GPA necessary to enter law school.
English, history, and poli sci may seem soft to an outsider, and indeed, if all you want to do is coast through and barely pass, you can get through these with minimal effort. But doing well (well enough to earn the necessary high GPA for law school admission) in these subjects is indeed challenging; and the way they are structured and graded is very similar to the law school experience. Again, just my view and YMMV, but I hope you can see what I’m getting at.
