Actually that’s not true, its compartmentalized knowledge and the CoS has tried with mixed success to get sites that put up certain level thetan documents pulled from the net. What you will hear from a Scientologist is what they’re all told, stuff you can get from reading Dianetics. The rub is to learn more, there are fees and the fees are large.
As to your comparision to the wrong-doings of other religions, I don’t think its at all fair to point to events a couple hundred years ago to justify the actions of Scientologists. We have modern ethics not to mention modern laws that rewards tolerance and frown upon harassment. The CoS has been known to harass, stalk, and hurt members who leave, especially those who are fed up with their pricing scheme and hardline recruitment.
As to referring to the dictionary for the word cult, that’s a pretty pedantic thing to do and trying to blur the line between religion and cult isn’t very convincing. When modern people use the word cult they almost always mean a destructive cult not necessarily something that has broken off from the orthodoxy of an establised religion but doesn’t have the clout to become a sect. Scientology does fall into the catgory of a destructive cult for a lot of people.
As to the Clambake FAQ, I don’t think its possible to write something without bias. Its one thing to have a point of view and its another to be prejudiced. If you’re going to question it you should address the facts it presents not automaticly discredit the author. Its completly possible for the more prejudiced person to be accidenly right.
Anyone who might want to “ask a $cientologist” might look to the “Personal Accounts” section of Operation Clambake … http://www.xenu.net is RUN by one person, Mr. Andreas Heldal-Lund of Norway. Only a fraction of what you might find there (like the FAQ) was written by him. I enjoy the “A.R.S. Week in Review” the most.
Not to defend Scientology but is there a single major (or even minor) “religion” currently extant, whose origin story(stories) doesn’t read like a Marvel comic book?
People get different things out of their religions and I doubt most intelligent, sincere practicing Catholics / Baptists / Methodists / Lutherans / Muslims etc. feel they must hew to every single last tenet of their faith, even the most obviously ludicrous in order to achieve personal salvation. If some hapless Scientologist feels that he or she has conquered their thetans and this is putting them on the right path to mental clarity (or whatever) then God bless them.
I have to admit though, that the mental image of stacking billions of comatose bodies around volcanoes then lighting off a pile of H bombs to blow them all up is pretty damn creative even for delusional paranoid like L. Ron.
Doesn’t L. Ron’s Dianetics lay down some of the ideas of $cientology ? Or is that another set of drivel ?
As far as {i]Battlefield Earth* is concerned, I wonder why the $cientologists even care. The makers of the film have said repeatedly that the movie has nothing to do with the “religion” - and I believe them. I have read the book and it wasn’t bad at all, it was just science fiction. Who cares if it stinks (other than Travolta and others affiliated with the making) ? I mean its not as if the movie were a huge hit, then people were going to flock in droves to this cult. Is it ? Makes no sense . . . oh yeah, we’re talking about $cientology, um - nevermind.
In it, RTA tells a story about how the books were being bought by $cientologists by the bushel to drive it up the list of bestsellers.
As for the post by astro
" Not to defend Scientology but is there a single major (or even minor) “religion” currently extant, whose origin story(stories) doesn’t read like a Marvel comic book? "
I would defend other religions to a point owing to the fact of when their beliefs were written. How does someone thousands of years ago explain occurances to the masses back then? They had no other basis of knowledge of physics and other stuff, so a ‘miracle’ that could be explained today by some naturally occuring phenomena was really something magical to them. Now, Dianetics being penned within the past 50 odd years (don’t know exactly when) and making these clearly outrageous claims is just fishing for idiots. But back then, how else do you explain to a peasant the miracle of ‘God’?
This is an unformulated thought, maybe one that I should think about more and post a thread for, it might be interesting…I have had questions about observations of people in the past and acceptance of them as ‘real’. Sort of along the lines that we look at computer animation today and comment how real they look. But would a coconut mask be just as accepted as real to a New Guinea tribesman X years ago even though to us it obviously is just a coconut? Carrying it further, would we then be looked upon hundreds of years from now as ‘simple’ because of some of the things we believe now? I can see it in a future history book now “The people of the western world during the 21st century were even subscribing to such ideas as $cientology, the Miracle Diet and the success of internet companies even though they lost millions of dollars every year.” Great! So just because I’m alive now, people will be thinking that I’m such a simpleton…
My one experience with Scientology was with a student employee of mine when I was in college. He was a very nice person and very bright, but he didn’t exactly fit the college boy stereotype because he had cerebral palsy. Still, no one was mean to him.
He started going to auditing at the CoS in Chicago (we were in Evanston). In order to pay for the incredibly expensive sessions, he started giving sessions of his own at the center. I believe the sessions cost about $1000/hour for him, and of course he “earned” less than that for the sessions he gave. He missed work from spending time there, and I told him flat out if he missed more work he would be fired. He didn’t miss work after that, but I don’t know if he detached from the “church” completely or not.
Not to hijack or anything, but who are celebrities known to be associated with the CoS? I know of Tom Cruise, Nicole Kidman, Jenna Elfman, Juliette Lewis, John Travolta, and Kirstie Allie. I have also heard rumors that Tom Cruise has cut off ties. Does anyone know if this is true?
The difference would be, of course, that while we can’t know for sure whether those earlier religions were sincere or an attempt at a scam, we do know for sure with Scientology. L. Ron Hubbard said as much. To paraphrase, creating a new religion was a way to make gobs of money, avoid taxes and make it very difficult for the government to do anything about it.
Did you see his quote posted earlier?
L. Ron Hubbard:“If a man really wants to make a million dollars, the best way would be to start his own religion.”
What little I have looked into this belief system to my eyes qualifies it under my terms as a cult…A cult being a belief system that uses some form of mind control and who’s purpose seems to be to further the finanical situation of the organization and/or it’s power base.
But then since I have been looking into Scientology, The LDS Church, Jehovah’s Witness, Moonies and a few others I think many of these sects and organizations qualify as cults. They all seem to have several things in common…secret practices/ceremonies…tithing/fees…and mind control tactics. This is not to say that I don’t think during the history of the established Catholic church that they have not practiced any of these same methods, because in my eyes they have. And to their credit the modern Catholic church really has come a pretty long way from the days of the Inquisition.
Before I am bombarded with tirades of BIGOT! and intolerant asshole, I will say that I do not feel anything but tolerance for people who are honest and sincere in their quest for some type of spiritual identity. I also sympathize with someone who is raised or charmed into a belief system that gives them no leeway to probe, explore or question this system without severe consequences. So while I do not find fault with the true believers who practice these belief systems I do find it hard to feel anything but contempt for the heirarchy that run them.
As to why a seemingly smart guy like Tom Cruise would buy into a “religon” that is so obviously silly to many people…(and we can assume that he does possess a certain measure of intelligence for no other reason than he is very successful at what he does) …Well, the guy makes an obscene amount of money. From what we have all heard the church of Scientology charges monumental fees for it’s “services”, would it be safe to assume that Tom and Nicole are taking all of their religous contributions off on their taxes? I’d imagine when you make as much money as they do any little old tax break would help.
There’s a big difference between simplicity and stupidity. Stories written by people with no knowledge of science are necessarily simple. There is alot of truth and wisdom in the bible, despite it’s simple language. Likewise for Islam and other religions. To believe the $cientology story, however, you have to actively deaden your intellect, kind of what you have to do when the Star Trek gang starts talking about positronic neutrinos interfering with the Cochran Emitters.
And remember, intelligence and wisdom are different things. There are plenty of docters, lawyers, scientists, and other highly educated people who are also extremely stupid. Likewise, plenty of “simple” people without much formal education are extremely wise.
Oh, I am SALIVATING for the time that those deluded $cieno clams come to the SDMB to “communicate” with us! I’m not holding my breath though.
My thoughts on this “it’s a free country/people can believe what they want/leave them alone it’s no different from every other religion” argument, which seems as persistent as it is uninformed and ill-thought-out: by this reasoning, it is OK for your poor old grandmother to subscribe to 500 different magazines because she believes that she might win the sweepstakes that way - hope is a good thing that makes her happy, and there are worse things that have happened in the world than an old lady getting ripped off.
Or, it’s OK for your daughter to get in that car, because she believes that she will get some candy out of the deal - candy is good thing that makes her happy, and there are worse things that have happened in the world than a little girl getting killed.
$cientology is not a religion like the others, it has never been a religion like the others. It is a con, a racket, a shell game, a fraud, a joke. A pyramid scheme which rules from the top on down with simple brainwashing, low-grade mind control, and ordinary fear. Who seduces its recruits with sufficient subtlety to make it diffucult to walk away after a short time, and increasingly difficult after. Whose only goal is to soak money and stay out of trouble.
HARDLY in line with traditional religious thought - regardless of culture. Claiming that $cientology is OK because of the fact of the Spanish Inquisition or the Crusades or the Jihad, that’s just dumb in my opinion.
RTA…I feel the same way about the LDS church but to publicly say so here will bring me cries of bigot and persecutor of religons that I don’t understand. But there in lies the problem, I understand them all too well, or at least think I do. There are an awful lot of similarities to me between the these two cults Scientology and Mormonism. It’s just that Mormons have been around a little longer and had more time to tamper with their history and doctrines. Not really much unlike the history and doctrines of Christianity either though is it? Although I know that many will argue much of the Bible or what we know to be the origins of Christianity can be proved archeologically. The crap contained in the Book of Mormon is just that, crap. Elephants in North America, Native Americans decended from Jews, large technologically advanced cities that have never a tiny trace of been found! Please give me a break! Not to mention that God is a space alien that lives on some planet named Kolov, sound familiar? Do you think maybe L.Ron Hubbard could be the incarnation of Joseph Smith? Wonder how many secret wives old L.Ron had?
There is only one thing that should bother us about these kind of groups, their lust for power. And everyone here at the Straight Dope thinks fundamentalist Christians are a problem. The best that can be said about them is that they will never completely agree enough to get together and form a solid unit. But I don’t think it would be wrong for anyone to think it necessary to keep an eye out on the rise of any religon started by some money grubbing, power hungry confidence man.
Umm, since I started this post, mind if I bring this back to the beginning?
Though I admit to being skeptical of Scientology, my point was not to slam that religion, nor to make its tenets sound silly. To an alien unfamiliar with Earth religions, MOST of them might sound silly.
The point is, with very little effort, a curious alien could find out all he wanted to know about virtually any religion. You may feel that the teachings of Catholicism (or Islam, or Judaism, whatever) are silly, but the important fact here is… they’re not the least bit secret! Anyone who wants to know what Catholics (or Jews, or Mormons, or Wiccans, or Jehovah’s Witnesses) believe can find out everything in a hurry.
Only Scientology seems to require that I devote my life and life savings before I can find out what it’s all about.
If I’m wrong, I’m ready to learn more. If any Scientologist who wants to know what Catholics believe, I can give him the essentials in 30 seconds- he’s then free to pursue further knowledge, or dismiss the whole thing as a fairy tale. Jews, Moslems and Hindus could give similar 30 second summaries. I’d like to hear a comparable, concise explanation of Scientology. Can anyone (Scientologist or otherwise) provide that summary?
The difference between Scientology and other established religions, including LDS, is that you don’t have to pay to learn about the tenets of legitimate religions. Many adherents will tell you all about their religion for free; shoot, sometimes it’s all you can do to get them to shut up about it. Do you want to know what Mormons believe? Attend services at a Mormon church – you will be civilly, perhaps even warmly, welcomed. Read the Book of Mormon; it, in conjunction with the Bible, is the foundation for Mormon belief. Same with Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, and every other legitimate religion I can name.
Scientology, on the other hand, requires it’s adherents to pay for the privilege of “ascending” through the “levels” of its structure. Can’t afford to pay? Then you’ve gone as far as you’re going to go. Or you’re obviously not committed enough to Scientology, because if you were you would come up with the money. It’s not that it’s arguably bullshit that I object to; it’s that it’s bullshit I have to pay someone to feed me. No, thanks.
I’ll say this for the third, and final, time. Ask a Scientologist. If you can’t do that, visit their website, or go to the library and leaf through Dianetics. You can do all these for free. At the very least you can read my earlier posts about the basic tenets of Scientology. I’ll summarize:
You have a reactive mind and an analytical mind.
Your reactive mind is full of engrams.
When engrams are triggered, the reactive mind interferes with the analytical, and you don’t think so well.
Dianetic auditing can remove engrams.
When all the engrams are gone, you are clear. Now you only use your infallible analytical mind and are way better than pre-clears.
That’s it. No aliens. An actual Scientologist could probably explain it better. Any inaccuracies are due to my faulty pre-clear memory. Also, I feel I must add that I personally think that Scientology is beyond crap. I obtained that information for free. It also seemed to me that Dianetic auditing was very, very similar to Freudian analysis. Scientology and Psychiatry have always been at odds, and this may be the reason.
I have read many of the pages at Op Clambake, and all of the posts here. I assume it is out there but I have missed it. According to $cientologist mythology, how did the story of Xemu et al get handed down to Elron? To whom did he send his check to?
Also, how high up does the scam go? Is there and executive board that makes all of the decisions for the majority of the underlings? Or is most everyone in the organization convinced that they are in the right, that the churches doctrine is true? If the hierarchy is dominated by true believers, does that affect one’s opinion that it is a cult? And are there really no $cientologists registered here? Is there a $cientologist board out there?
That was the topic of the other running CoS thread, essentially the problem with Scientology isn’t their belief system, regardless of what most ignorant CoS bashers have to say. The problem is with their economic structure, their destructive cult behavior, and litigious nature. There’s a link to a great article describing destructive cults in my last post you should check out.
As to the poster who claims that supernatural explanations exist because of lack of advanced science, I don’t think that’s true at all. Most of the world believes in “illogical” ideas like gods, immortal souls, and miracles amongst the advanced scientific breakthroughs. Science will replace antiquated notions of how physical things work, but the meaning of existance and the morals of being human are quite out of its scope. Much to many post-modernist’s chagrin scientific cosmology hasn’t eliminated the need to spirituality and probably never will.
You can bash Scientologists for their actions but their belief system is actually pretty benign. They don’t have <i>jihads</i> nor are they half as proselytizing as some Christian groups. They aren’t as fanatical as the Jonestown and Heaven’s Gate people and they don’t drink poison and handle snakes. Its a lot of hokey and hackneyed 50’s Sci-Fi with a mix of pseudo-science. Unlike other abusive religious traditions their destructive behavoir isn’t a product of their belief system but apart from it, which is probably more the reason to be suspiscious of them.
Lance Turbo, I believe that when people talk about scientology’s “secrets”, they refer to the various levels of knowledge referred to as “Operating Thetan” or OT levels.
As far as the aliens go, it is mentioned in the story of “Xenu” (from http://www.xenu.net )
<<The head of the Galactic Confederation (76 planets around larger stars visible from here) (founded 95,000,000 yrs ago, very space opera) solved overpopulation (250 billion or so per planet) – 178 billion average) by mass implanting. He caused people to be brought to Teegeeack (Earth) and put an H Bomb on the principal volcanoes (Incident 2) and then the Pacific area ones were taken in boxes to Hawaii and the Atlantic Area ones to Las Palmas and there “packaged.” His name was Xenu. He used renegades. Various misleading data by means of circuits etc. were placed in the implants. When through with his crime Loyal Officers (to the people) captured him after 6 years of battle and put him in an electronic mountain trap where he still is. “They” are gone. The place (Confed.) has since been a desert.>>
The engrams are supposed to be related in some way to the souls of the beings killed by Xenu.
My information comes from a website opposed to scientology, so of course one should take it with a grain of salt. But the author claims to have received this information from formers members of the Church of Scientology.
Ok to the OP…aside from the fact that you have been told that to know something about Scientology ask one…you’ve also been told that you will be doled out in portions the full doctrine, if you will, of the church over time and with enough money in your pocket. This is also true of many of the same cults I have mentioned before. The LDS church, The Watchtower/Jehovah’s Witnesses etc. If you ask any of these people you will only be told either what is in that person’s limited knowlege that he can tell you or have been instructed on how to deal with new recruits. Get it now? From what I have been seeing this is a very standard practice in cults. Give recruits and questioners a little bit at a time. Don’t tell them everything or anything to early on that will put them off. The full doctrine is introduced gradually so as to be easier to swallow. Then once you are interested there are seminars, retreats, fastings, chantings, initiation rites etc. all used in order to give the member/convert a sense of belonging and a personal investment in the belief system. Brainwashing, mind control whatever you call it for many it works.
Don’t listen to anyone tell you that you should ask one of these people about their faith. You are much better off to have asked here or done a little research on your own if you are interested in alternative religions. Not that I am suggesting that you are gullible or easily persuaded it’s just that many people are and find themselves trapped in one of these cult mentalities.
To Rhythm…it is my understanding that the hierarchy and even the believers of many of these cults are told that it is OK to lie to non-believers about their doctrines. This being that in some way the end justifies the means so to speak in keeping secrets about the church that will not be looked upon favorably by mainstream doctrines. Non-believers are looked upon as apostate or just plain evil and therefore not entitled to the truth. Scientology I have not looked at that closely yet, Jehovah’s Witnesses I’m looking at right now. I will say that the founder of the Watchtower organization, C.T. Russell appeared to be a man in search of something. He was caught up in the trend of his day which was Aventism, an apocalyptic movement. It appears that the Jehovah’s Witnesses did not get their name or many of their tactics until his successor came along. All of this is facinating to me, as is the history of religion in general. But I cannot classify any of these mentioned sects, cults whatever you might call them with Buddism, Hinduism, or Judeo/Christian religions even though when I started looking into them all I had an open mind.
Well, no, because in my experience this isn’t true. The Jehovah Witnesses do not require any payment as a prerequisite for explaining their beliefs – they’ll do it for free, often whether you like it or not, by knocking on doors to leave copies of The Watchtower and to discuss their religion with you. Why? Because a large component of their belief system is the importance of proselytizing. Mormons, as well, while not so committed to proselytizing, are pretty open in discussing the tenets of their religion with those who are interested. Neither faith requires you to “buy” your way intothe faith, or make financial ability a prerequisite for progressing through the faith.
Whether or not any religion is a cult depends on how you define “cult.” But since neither of these religions require a significant financial outlay to participate, neither was started primarily as a money-making venture, and neither features paranoia or secrecy as a chief feature, I don’t think it’s fair to compare them to Scientology.