Heavy Metal was rarely light and "good aligned’. It was dark, sexy and bloody. I dont remember heroes being “Boy Scouts” like Supes.
…you can’t both be a “terrible director” and make “awesome scenes.” Those scenes don’t come together by magic. By all accounts Synder is a very capable director who excels in people management and collaboration. And if I had a choice of a director on a project I would pick Snyder over Whedon every single time.
Synder’s problem is that the films that he makes have very niche appeal. I tried to get through his Justice League but I didn’t get past the second act. Some people love that stuff. I found it excruciating. But we shouldn’t pretend that Synder doesn’t have talent. He knows his craft.
He shouldn’t be allowed near the DC franchise ever again IMO. But he knows how to direct. Both these things can be true.
Of course you can. You can have a scene that involves tight shots, stunning visuals and impressive emotional response. And then have no character development and a plot that feels like a mental deficient came up with it.
And you would never get a good story that was under four hours long.
He has talent. It just isn’t at storytelling.
He knows how to direct visuals. He should never be in change of an entire film.
His four-hour cut proves he can tell a story. Put that together with Man of Steel and Dawn of Justice and you have as comprehensive and character-driven story as Whedon has ever done.
Now, you can say that “I don’t like this version of the story/characters,” but that’s just a preference. That doesn’t prove Snyder can’t direct.
You can also say “he can’t deliver a story under four hours,” but that’s a limitation on his directing ability. Most directors have some limitation. But again that doesn’t prove “he can’t direct.”
There are many components to a director’s job and he has weaknesses in some of them (length) and he excels in several of them (cinematography, getting performances out of actors through collaboration).
Whedon doesn’t even excel in all the things a director or a writer has to do. For example, Whedon writes dialogue and draws performances from actors that makes many of the characters sound like they’re the same person.
I loved Buffy when it originally aired, but now when I go back to see it, Whedon’s faults as a director are stark. Much of it in the dialogue and the performances.
…I don’t actually think you understand the role of the director on the film. You don’t get to that “tight shot” without a thousand other things happening behind the scenes from creating a shooting script to breaking that shooting script down. You don’t get that “tight shot” if the Director of Photography, the Costume Designers, the Art Director, the 1st AD, the Grips and the assistants are all working on the same page. The director is at the heart of the process, and that process is a complex maelstrom of chaos that more often than not threatens to pull itself apart at every stage of production.
You don’t get that shot if the director can’t do their job. You don’t get a movie with the grand scale and scope of Justice League if the director didn’t know how to direct.
That doesn’t make Justice League an objectively good movie. Its still a movie I don’t like and I can’t finish. But its silly to pretend that Snyder is a terrible director. He’s a good director with a very distinct vision that only really has niche appeal.
Of course you could. Arguably his best film, Dawn of the Dead, had a runtime of an hour and forty minutes. If I gave him my script and I’d have every confidence he would knock it out of the park.
And I’d have the added bonus that my director wouldn’t be a casually cruel pathetic asshole who caused so much trauma with some of his actors his actions are still a burden over 20 years later.
One of those talents is that he’s a good director.
It still looks like you are conflating several different things here. Plenty of directors are “in charge of an entire film” but had no part to play in the original screenplay or story. I’m actually fine if producers are happy to give Synder money to keep on making niche films that his fans adore. I’m also glad that it looks like he won’t have anything to do with the DC franchise going forward.
But the DC universe has a bigger problem than Synder. The people at the very top also need to go.
No argument there.
…I mean over at Marvel right now they’ve got a series that is being headlined by two minor supporting characters from the movies and they both are knocking it out of the park. Each episode seamlessly reintroduces plot threads and story arcs from movies made years ago by different writers and directors, and it all just hangs together cohesively and naturally.
And the reason it all works is that from the top down the production team are in love with the material. I’ve shared this before but this anecdote about the behind the scenes of Civil War says it all. The way Feige revealed to the writers that they had Spider-man to play with is both hilarious and revealing.
And its that passion for the universe that the DC film universe is lacking.
What series is that?
Falcon and the Winter Soldier.
BB, thank you for that link. I’ve saved it so I can go back and watch the whole thing.
I understand it fine. You are attributing skills to Snyder that he doesn’t have. He can direct a shot-for-shot remake of a comic, for instance. But he’s not able to tell a compelling story unless someone else is holding his leash. I mean, I’m all for him directing films that someone else writes and produces. His judgement about what makes a story is horrifying.
Sure. He can handle the logistics. He can frame a shot. He can’t direct a film that isn’t something an edgy 16 year old would imagine if he has unfettered control.
The niche is, “people with terrible taste in film.” 
Great. Make sure that he has zero creative control and someone else is in charge of the money.
Great. I haven’t heard a single thing Whedon has done that is more than being an asshole. If he’s an asshole that can tell a great story, I’ll take that over a nice guy that decides that Superman is a dour twat who doesn’t care about collateral damage.
Unless you count all the films he’s had total control over.
Agreed. Also, his films aren’t good with niche audiences. They’re good with people who don’t give a fuck about good films as long as there are lasers and slo-mo punches.
Snyder is 90% of the problem with DC. He’s they guy who thought Pa Kent’s heartfelt moral advice for Superman should be, “Maybe let a bus load of children die to preserve your secret ID.” He doesn’t understand anything about these heroes aside from how their powers should look.
He’s superficial.
Well, that’s certainly an opinion that you can hold.
I’ll grant he can technically direct. He’s just unable to produce quality work when he has total control.
Sure. Although he didn’t even direct much of Buffy, only 21 episodes according to IMDB. The films he has directed, Serenity, Avengers, and Age of Ultron, were better than anything Snyder has done, IMHO (which, since he writes comics is probably to be expected). Even with AoU’s studio tweaking.
…I’m skipping all the rest of what you wrote because this right here is absolutely wrong. You don’t understand the process. You can’t shoot a “shot-for-shot remake of a comic” if you don’t have the skills you need to direct. It just isn’t going to happen. You can’t accidentally make a movie like Justice League. You can hate Snyder as much as you like. That doesn’t change the fact that he knows how to direct.
And this right here everyone is the reason why Hollywood remains a toxic environment for women and people of colour.
Nell Scovell was a writer who years ago interviewed to be a writer on Buffy. She was pregnant at the time. The first thing Whedon said to her was:
“Boy, are you fat.”
https://twitter.com/NellSco/status/1360062534729031684
Imagine knowing about that story and knowing that it was merely one story of hundreds that we know of that displayed such casual, toxic cruelty and being able to say with a straight face you would take the “asshole that can tell a great story, over the nice guy” who can also tell a great, but different story.
Firefly writer described Whedon as being casually cruel.
https://twitter.com/JoseMolinaTV/status/1360386433769295873
Imagine after hearing all of these stories thinking that Whedon is suitable to direct a feature film, let alone at TV series. The man shouldn’t be allowed a management position where he holds power of women and people of colour, let alone being allowed on a film set again.
The amount of privilege you have to be able to write that sentence. It’s unbelievable. There is so much untapped talent out there. Look at what Marvel is doing with diversity in their productions. Cate Shortland. Destin Daniel Cretton. Chloe Zhao. Taikia Waititi. Ryan Coogler. Nia DaCosta. Hollywood directing has long been the domain of white men. But the directing ranks in phase 4 are dominated by diverse voices in a way that is completely out-of-step with the way the rest of the industry is.
And that has carried over to the television shows. Jac Schaeffer was the showrunner for WandaVision. Malcolm Spellman the showrunner for Falcon and the Winter Soldier with Kari Skogland directing. Bisha K. Ali is the showrunner for Ms Marvel and the directors are Sharmeen Obaid-Chinoy, Adil El Arbi, Bilall Fallah and Meera Menon.
Joss Whedon’s day is done. Its over. He brings nothing to the table. Nobody needs him any more. The industry doesn’t need a storyteller who only really ever had a single story to tell back in the fold. It doesn’t need an abusive bullying asshole to tell a good story. There are plenty of other voices out there that deserve the chance.
He can technically direct. He has no ability to tell a decent story, if he’s in charge.
I’m sorry I made Hollywood a toxic environment for women and people of color.
Snyder can’t tell a great story.
And Snyder isn’t one of those people.
…finally. This really wasn’t a difficult point to understand.
You are one of many that don’t understand exactly what it is that Whedon has done wrong. And you are happy to give him a pass on his cruelty, his toxic behaviour and his abuse because, as you said he “can tell a great story.”
The thing is you aren’t alone in your thoughts here. There are others in this thread who agree. There are the people who hired Whedon over and over again and some of them must have known.
As long as we tolerate this sort of behaviour it will always be a problem. Because its bigger than Whedon and its bigger than Hollywood. You can try and pretend that you didn’t say what you said. But you’ve told on yourself here.
I didn’t say he couldn’t direct. I said he was terrible. Which isn’t difficult for you to understand either.
I don’t give him a pass. I said I prefer someone who is an asshole, to someone who is incompetent, like Snyder. I expect Whedon to control his assholery in the future.
They know that he’s good at his job, and that people agree to work with him.
Thanks for the sermon. You don’t have any special insight.
…you don’t get to tell me that.
I’m a brown person trying to navigate my way through the creative spaces of a very white world. You don’t get to tell me that I don’t have any “special insight” into what marginalised people have to put up with because I have to deal with it every fucking day.
The absolute fucking privilege on display here. Unbelievable.
Wow you’re silly.
Didn’t I just do it?
I’m half Filipino. Really white people can tell, like from Montana white. They think I’m half Mexican. Is that brown enough for me to tell you that you that you’re wrong?
I’m sorry your life is hard. I hope it gets better. Genuinely.
…I’m not wrong.
I would prefer it if you could squeeze out an ounce of sympathy for the people that Whedon harassed, bullied and abused over the last twenty years.
That is exactly the sort of thing someone who was wrong might say.
I have sympathy for them.