So the airport Guardsmen are carrying unloaded weapons...

stankow:

And I can understand how some could take offense at some of my word choices, and I can also understand how someone can overreact (because I’m guilty of that myself from time to time). No hard feelings, I hope.

“Intel weenies”: just in jest, I assure you. I know a few people who’ve been in that line of work who are–trust me–weenies. I’ve heard other people use the term and have come across it in books and gradually it’s crept into standard usage in Mephistospeak. I never intended to insult anybody by its use. Rather, I was “making fun,” the way some people do when they say, “Military Intelligence–what an oxymoron–har, har, har.” I apologize for any misunderstanding.

Your comment about infantrymen and their weapons training is valid. When I spoke of my fears regarding the possibility of just plucking soldiers from the nearest armories, I was expressing concern about whether the qualifications of the Guardsmen in question had been taken into consideration at all.

I didn’t mean to imply that I thought that Combat Arms units were necessarily the best ones for the job of airport security. That said, I do feel that some military units are better suited to the job than others. I feel this way because different units have different missions (few, if any, involve protecting civilian airports), and thus receive some training that could be applicable to airport duty. Some people, for example, have more weapons training. Others have more first aid training. Still others will have more experience working with the public, or other soldiers in a high-stress environment, or whatever. It’s not, in my mind, so much a question of quality of training as it is type of training. I don’t think a large percentage of the National Guard–or the military in general–would be of much use in a serious airport security operation as anything more than a “visible presence” or in any kind crisis simply because that’s not what they’re meant to do.

I agree that Guardsmen can be useful as an extra layer of security, so long as they don’t get in the way. They give the cops extra sets of eyes and may serve as a deterrent for some of the bad guys. My fear, though, is that if Something Bad happens, the Guardsmen will get in the way.

Of course I realize that the Guard presence at the airport is really more about having a visible military presence than “practical security” (I know, the two are related). Perhaps in the final analysis, America’s continued use of airplanes on a large scale will be shown to be a huge victory for our Psychological Operations people.

So who should guard the Anytown International Airport? Well, obviously I think not the Guard. But if this is our best choice, I would hope it would be Guardsmen who then received practical training and testing in certain skills (marksmanship, first aid, crowd control, and a bunch of other stuff) and who were thoroughly briefed on their place and how they were expected to interact with various other people in the event of an incident. And who knows, maybe there has been some good training going on but my cynical nature makes me doubt it.

I should say in closing, however, that the National Guard (of which I was a part) makes me feel a hell of a lot safer than the O’Hare rent-a-cop who got so distracted by my steel toe boots that she let me on the plane without even checking the rest of my body for guns, knives, and nuclear devices.

Moving this from IMHO to Great Debates.

As one who’s been in that line of work, Mephisto, I don’t trust you because you’re wrong.

Mephisto (and others):
Exactly what useful purpose is accomplished by a “visible military presence” that is visibly unarmed? A false sense of security is worse than no security, because it discourages caution.

Not that I think there’s any significant threat in airports that would even require more visible security. There are much better ways to attack our travel infrastructure than sneaking a bomb through the scanner or taking and holding an airport.

If the government is going to pay for all of this increased security, why not just go the way of the railroad cops? A federal or state Airport Police Force (is it already in the works, I don’t know).

You can sunset out the guard units in place now as training of the new police concludes. I know more than a few guard members who are itching to end this deployment rotation and get their lives back on track.

I would feel much better if the extra armed guys in the airport were doing this full time as their primary job.

Side story: The Thursday after 9/11 my wife and I were waiting in Fulmincino(sp?) airport in Rome to catch a flight to Heathrow and get back to the US the next day. The Italians had called up all of their domestic security details, including reservists. There were lots of guys in black and guys in green, as well as the usual police. Lots of SMGs and assault rifles everywhere.

I felt sorry for the Sudanese woman who left her bag by her chair and went to the facilities. Two black shirts spotted it and by the time she came back there were a half dozen guys there (including management). For a brief moment I thought the black shirts were just going to butt-stroke her to express their exasperation with the language barrier. I couldn’t help but think that a regular security person would have handled the situation much, much better. That’s why I would like to see a professional force doing the job.

Sorta like how traffic cops are better at directing traffic through an intersection than construction workers are.

(I swear, I remember a time when a construction worker “expected” all the traffic coming to an intersection to automatically “know” that his arm signals were meant for everyone except the people in the left-turn lane, whom he expected to follow the green arrow light. What a maroon.)

On what points am I incorrect, Monty?

This is a sticky issue between gun nuts and “regular people” :slight_smile:

Clips are generally simply pieces of metal that grip the grooves on the back of cartridges, they’re used strictly to hold a bunch of bullets together in a bunch, typically for quickly loading a magazine.

A magazine is a fully enclosed body, including a base plate, magazine body, spring, and follower from which the bolt actually feeds bullets.

It’s a minor issue, but it’s a sticking point for people who get irked at common errors like that.

“This is scary. Not that soldiers have unloaded weapons, but that so many people think it’s a good idea. The problem is, anyone who wanted to cause serious trouble in an airport would neutralize the guardsmen first. Don’t give them the chance to lock & load and then you can do whatever you want.”

I’m going to point out that if Terrorist X can neutralize all the guardsmen before they can load up and blow him/her into Hell, it doesn’t matter much whether or not they’re carrying loaded guns.

“Bullets”, SenorBeef ? ROFLMAO! :smiley:

The only thing I’ve ever seen holding a bunch of bullets together is a cardboard box :slight_smile:

Kalashnikov:

Did you wince as much as I did when you saw the poster for Naked Gun 33 1/3, which showed a bullet shot out of Leslie Nielson’s gun ricocheting around with the cartridge casing still attached?

I never saw that poster, but I did once see a tv commercial that showed something similar.

I’d like to remind everyone that unloaded is not unarmed. Not even visibly unarmed; Any terrorist that’s expecting a confrontation will KNOW that full magazine pouches mean they’re carrying ammo. It seems to be fairly common practice to have millitary guards carrying their weapons without a magazine loaded (At least in more public areas), but they would have at least one, if not a half dozen or more magazines ready to slap in at the first sign of trouble.

And I don’t think the 3-5 second delay would be that big of a deal. That’s 3-5 seconds to eliminate every guardsman in the whole airport (How many is the average deployment for an international airport, anyway?)? And then what? Congratulations, you’ve got a couple dead guards, an airport full of panicing people running away, all air traffic grounded or diverted, every relevant local, state, and federal agency allerted to the attack, and the police and/or NG (Or worse) on their way to clean up. Best they could expect is a rather doomed hostage situation, in which case, why would they be going to a place with millitary guards instead of a dozen other unguarded places that would be just as good and easier to get to? Not to mention someplace that would be easier for them to secure than an entire airport. Or maybe blow up a plane on the ground, in which case, why even go through the passenger terminal in the first place?

Personally, I think the best setup would be magazine in, no round chambered (Bolt foreward, too), and on safety. Takes hardly any time to ready to fire, and minimal chance of an accidental discharge (Barring absolute stupidity, which can overwhelm any safety feature). At least, if there were a good chance of a threat there. But in such a low-threat, high-population environment as an airport, I don’t see any problem with having the weapons unloaded.

Bah. I meant to say ‘cartridges’.

I guess it’s alright to nitpick me when I’m making a nitpicky post.

:stuck_out_tongue:

Why, you’re incorrect on the “weenie” part. Since you used “trust me” as your basis for making that statement, I think you’ve lost all validity in your debating stance.