From a newspaper story this morning:
Now, I don’t condone racism in any form for any reason. I understand that Motown represents predominantly Afro-Americans, and celebrates the history and culture that produced a certain style of music, but many artists who aren’t Afro-American have also been influenced by the Motown sound. Should they not be allowed to honour and celebrate Motown’s contribution to music?
I really doubt its got much to do with his color. Im against him doing it as well, and its not because of his color. Its because he has no right being up there with real musicians. I mean the guy is from INSYNC for chrissake. It smacks of corporate exploitation to take advantage of the stir from the superbowl. The guy hasnt earned the right to stand among Motown.
Someone like Eric Clapton, or even Dan Akroyd, probably wouldnt cause a stir. But having some boy-band dweeb up there would be as inappropriate as the Hansens hosting a memorial to Hendrix or Django Reinhardt.
I agree with your reasoning about him not having the chops to be up there. But it appears they’ve expressly said that it’s because he’s white. Not that he’s not talented (which would have been more valid, IMO), not that he’s not “Motown”, but that he’s white.
What do you mean, “racism IS ok?”? You surely don’t mean to imply that anybody with any sense is condoning racial death threats, do you?
I would also be careful with the allegation that some African American groups objected to Timberlake’s co-hosting the Motown awards “because he is white”. I haven’t heard of anyone complaining specifically about Timberlake’s being white or about a white person’s being part of the Motown awards.
The way I heard it, the basis of the complaints was not race but the notorious “Super Bowl titty incident” involving Janet Jackson:
So the criticism seems to be not that a white person doesn’t belong in Motown, but that it’s not fair for Jackson to be penalized in her career (losing endorsements, etc.) for the incident while Timberlake isn’t.
In any case, the only reason stated by Timberlake himself for withdrawing from the Motown awards is that he has a schedule conflict with filming for a movie.
Whew, I hope I have turned the hose of information on the fire of ignorance here early enough that we don’t end up with a threadful of knee-jerk “anti-PC” zealots howling about how hypocritical black people are when they complain about racism.
According to this article: http://u.dailynews.com/Stories/0,1413,211~23520~1976559,00.html
Timberlake dropped out because he will be filiming a movie at the time of the awards. It also describes the black group that objected to him as “project islamic hope” which may or may not be a rascist organization but it is not a mainstream group that speaks for many people.
That would be the opposite of my point. How can anybody with any sense condone it? But according to the story I read, that’s what happened.
Not my allegation. I’m quoting directly from the newspaper. I don’t have an online cite as this is a daily freebie given out around Toronto.
Actually, if you go by my OP, that seems to be exactly the criticism, however your link provides a much clearer picture. I would argue however, that energy could be better spent defending Ms. Jackson’s actions (which, IMO, were a pretty lame publicity stunt) and getting her career back on track, rather than turning it into a “two wrongs” situation.
Racism is OK in America, as long as you’re not white.
It’s true. The ACLU regular acts like a pack of racists, but it’s OK because they represent people who “aren’t white”. Try being a white girl at the wrong bar in Oakland and you’ll see racism is alive and well as you stand there ten minutes while the bartender looks past you and people talk shit about you. If you were a black person at, say, Dennys and regularly had to wait longer for service, you could sue for lots of money (oh, wait, that already happened!) But no white person will ever bring a successful lawsuit like that, even though the exact same thing happens to them. This is racism, people.
Disclaimer: most non-white people in America are not like this. But there are some who do this and white people can’t talk about it because they are seen as having all kinds of advantages, so they should just take it.
J.Timberlake is seen as having taken advantage of Janet Jackson partly because he tried to play the incident off at first (which is not surprising since he’s in show business). But the fact that he is white and she is black is central to the whole issue, and don’t you forget it. If it was Nelly who did it and said the same thing, you could bet your bottom dollar that he’d still be going to the Motown awards.
Ghanima, I agree with you basically. If it were Nelly, I assume he could do the Motown awards, just as you say.
I also speculate that if it was Nelly who whipped out Janet’s right tit, there’d be even more uproar about it than JT, and he would NEVER have made it to the Grammys to be applauded like JT did.
White people like their black artists in certain boxes. Step out of the box, though, and look out. Black people, naturally, resent this, and do some nasty things in return. And on it goes.
Let’s not forget who’s bearing (no pun intended) all the blame for Tittygate. JT is a no-talent lying-ass little punk as far as I can tell. He makes me sick, but as the average white pop audience is comprised of drooling idiots, I doubt he’ll ever get what he deserves. You have to screw up Vanilla-Ice-scale for that.
Ghanima: But the fact that he is white and she is black is central to the whole issue, and don’t you forget it. If it was Nelly who did it and said the same thing, you could bet your bottom dollar that he’d still be going to the Motown awards.
In other words, because you hypothetically suppose that these black groups would have reacted differently if a hypothetical black entertainer had hypothetically done what Timberlake did, then we can conclude that these groups are being racist in their complaints? :rolleyes:
How about I hypothetically suppose that if Timberlake had hypothetically pulled the Super Bowl stunt with a hypothetical white entertainer instead of Jackson, he wouldn’t have exposed her tit and she wouldn’t have gotten in trouble? Hey! Justin Timberlake’s a racist! :rolleyes:
Lord, sometimes it seems like there just isn’t a hose of information long enough to fight this fire with.
This is exactly what I heard. JT is perceived as having gained maximum publicity advantage with Titgate, but then left Janet to pick up most of the rap, distancing himself from it.
He’s perceived as betraying a muscian from the very genre (black/r’n’b) that he (is now perceived to have) “exploited” for his own success. Previously, his drawing from r’n’b was seen as a tribute to it, now it is seen as opportunism.
You didn’t provide a link to the story from which you pulled the quote, but the inclusion of the adjective “hunky” in your excerpt makes me think this is some sort of gossip column, possibly provided by a feed from one of the British celebrity/tabloid style rags, which of course are not known for their journalistic integrity and depth of analysis. Given that, I think it’s fairly likely that the story was hugely simplified for the benefit of its simpleminded readership and doesn’t reflect the reality of the situation.
I think that this whole issue is absurd and really, really counterproductive.
From what I’ve been able to find about it, there’s no doubt that it’s a purely racial issue. Even the Janet Jackson thing apparently is a big deal because Timberlake
That’s from the editor in chief of something called Black Talent News. She also said Timberlake no longer has a “Black folks pass,” which apparently means he was allowed to act black before (?).
Another tidbit from the same MSNBC gossip column thing:
I don’t get it, and I’m usually the white guy railing against white people in situations like this one. Motown is now an adjective meaning black, is that it? If he’s a good example of a popular musician who’s been influenced by the Motown tradition, what’s the problem? They play his stuff on BET, so I assume he’s at least pretty popular in the African American community.
Situations like this one are the reasons why minorities in America are given no credence when they object to real injustices. This just makes it easy for people like Ghanima to say things like it’s OK to be racist if you’re not white, which, in my opinion, is ridiculous. Save the outrage for something that doesn’t make you look petty- God knows there’s enough to be righteously outraged about.
It’s from a free paper that’s available in Toronto (easy blurbs to read on the train ride to work), and is an offshoot of the Toronto Sun, more known for its sports coverage and Sunshine Girl than anything else. I wouldn’t call it the gold standard of journalism, but I think it’s closer to newspaper than tabloid. They may have picked it up from another source, but the only reference I can find at the end of the column is the caption “AP/Reuters Photos”. Does that mean “Story by AP, photos by Reuters” or “Photos by AP and/or Reuters”?
Yes.
No, if he pulled the stunt with a white woman he still would have exposed her breast. They would both still be in trouble.
I agree that the particular situation is ridiculous. I also said that most people do not behave in this manner. But it is undeniable that “reverse racism” as it is often called does exist. That is not ridiculous. Try living with it. And I totally agree that situations like these make the real injustices harder to recognize.
Also, I wonder what would happen if a spokesperson for WB said that some black performer had lost their “white folks pass.” Smells like racism to me.
Racism is alive and well. It’s just easier for blacks and Hispanics to get away with it because of their "years of oppression” :rolleyes:
That’s my point. You said racism was OK in America. Situations like this one are racist, and you’re using this situation as evidence, or at least a launching pad, to say that it’s OK to be racist if you’re not white. My point, and I believe the point of the OP, is that this situation is wrong, and most people think it’s wrong.
However, some people see situations like this one, i.e. black people being racist towards white people, and say “Look! Look! Reverse racism is OK!” But who said that it was OK? There’s some kind of strawman justification of these kinds of practices that people rail against, but who’s arguing that these behaviors are justified? The racists, obviously, but who else? You say yourself most people don’t behave like this.
When racist white people say racist things, it’s racism. When racist black people say racist things, it’s racism. The difference is that when the racist is black, people get outraged at another example of the double standard in America. There’s no double standard, or “reverse” racism. There’s racism, period. It’s bad for society, we all recognize that- that’s what this thread’s about. I don’t get why some people think any reasonable person supports certain kinds of racism, unless you’re talking about affirmative action or something like that, which has nothing to do with Justin Timberlake whatsoever.
pencilpusher, you’re right, blacks weren’t ever oppressed. Roll those eyes.
I agree totally. Where we diverge is that you seem to think that there is not a societal permissiveness of black racism. THERE IS. You will in all likelihood not see that person who made the “black folks pass” statement forced to resign because of public backlash, as opposed to many a white person who has been. There IS permissiveness toward “reverse racism” aka racism against white people because there is a feeling that payback is fair.
As an example, look at the teenager who tried to start a caucasian club at her high school. The purpose of the club and their mission statement was nearly identical to ones for similar clubs aka Asian, Black, etc. These mission statements were generally saying something like “to discuss the history and relevance of said race in today’s society.” All of these clubs including the proposed caucasian club are open to all students, regardless of race. The only difference was that it was a caucasian club. There was a huge backlash, the school wouldn’t allow it, then the ACLU stepped in and said that it supported the decision by the principal not to allow the club!!! I’m sorry, but that is racism. The ACLU is racist! and if the ACLU can be racist, that sends a huge message that racism is indeed OK in America, as long as you’re not white.
Ghanima: *As an example, look at the teenager who tried to start a caucasian club at her high school. […] There was a huge backlash, the school wouldn’t allow it, then the ACLU stepped in and said that it supported the decision by the principal not to allow the club!!! *
Could we get a cite for that, please?
I presume you’re referring to freshman Lisa McClelland’s attempts to start a Caucasian Club at Freedom High School in Oakley, CA, apparently first reported on last September. The most recent information I could find about it was an article from October 23, reporting that she had transferred to another school due to controversy and harassment about the club.
Nowhere did I see any indication that the principal had decided not to allow the club (the first linked article says that they were waiting to see whether the student would meet the requirements for starting a school club), nor does the ACLU seem to be involved in this matter in any way whatsoever. So let’s see either a reliable cite to the contrary or a retraction from you, Ghanima, if you please, and that right speedily.
IMHO, it’s probably more to do with him being Justin Timberlake than with him being white.
I wouldn’t imagine R. Dean Taylor getting death threats if he was hosting…
Bwah??? I’ve never heard anybody say this, and I can’t understand where you came up with it. I don’t know of anybody who even agrees with the first part - “he took advantage of her.” If anybody thinks that, it’s because he ripped her shirt off and exposed her tit to about a billion people. Which is why he’s not wanted at these awards. If this stunt was her idea, it’s more like she took advantage of him. Probably the truth is they’re both douchebags. You’re the first person I’ve heard play the race card here, Ghanima.
Timberlake is a big enough star that he’d normally be welcome at this sort of event despite his race and suckiness. But this controversy has been bad for both of them.