So, was Darth Vader really kind of a chump?

Cafe Society
21

Anakin still did a pretty good job of wiping out lots of Jedi. And he kicked Tyranus butt with barely any assistance from Obi-Wan. So pre-injury, he was a pretty solid sidekick, well on his way to becoming a Sith Lord Extraordinaire.

After his injury, Sidious knew that Vader couldn’t do all those fun tricks like microwaving popcorn with his fingers, but he was still a pretty tough guy. And with no other Jedi floating around, Vader could still be very effective. All the guy had to do was use the force to choke the crap out of people and deflect a laser blast with his light saber to convice people that he was not a man to be trifled with. So why not keep the guy around to scare the crap out of people.

Beats going out and training a new apprentice. It took ten years from the time he first identified the kid to bring Anakin around.

I think if they had realized that a lot of the Jedi Knights had been killed by Stormtroopers, they would have never taken his shit and sent a bunch of Stormtroopers to kill him in the bathroom. And if they found out that he was really just a whiny little bitch with a weakness for Natalie Portman, Vader would have been a joke. The guys at the Death Star officers club would have been sending him blow up Amidala dolls for his birthday.

22

Vader had one big huge whopping value as an apprentice that was sorely lacking in an ideal Sith Lord.

Loyalty that precluded the ambition to off your master and take his place.

Tyrranus would have eventually wanted to off Sidious and take his place. Vader never made any effort to do this and remained loyal even to the point of offering his own son to the Emperor (the Abraham of the Sith).

23

There were lots of them long before the time of the movies, in EU, canon Revan is the first that comes to mind, but I’m sure there were more before him.

24

I thought he was disloyal. He wanted to Luke to be his apprentice so they could overthrow(kill) the Emperor and take his place.

That’s seriously disloyal.

25

Anakin/Vader was NEVER “loyal” to Palpatine/Sidious. Sith apprentices aren’t expected to be and don’t need to be. The Sith rule is IIRC, “A master to hold the Power and an apprentice to covet it”. The deal, such as it is, goes like this: the apprentice will serve the master as long as the master thinks there isn’t someone else stronger and more worthy (and duels to the death between an apprentice and a would-be apprentice are commonplace). The apprentice will get exactly ONE try at overthrowing his master. If he fails, the master looks for a new apprentice. If the master was weak or foolish enough to lose, he deserved to. Ultimately it’s about the Dark Side seeking more perfect vessels for itself.

Speaking of which, I think that’s why the Sith order finally came out of hiding when it did. If the scheme to have the strongest Sith perpetuate himself forever via transfer to cloned bodies had worked, there would have been no more need for apprentices; only a single supreme outlet for the Dark Side, forever. To have the resources to achieve this goal was in large part why gaining control of the Galaxy became an immediate priority.

Anakin/Vader had a peculiar half-nature: on some level he loathed what he had become, but thought that the Dark Side was the only way to power. Some remnant of his better nature still thought of possessing power in order to achieve the goals he’d originally sought- of a perfect peace and order. Along these lines, I believe his offer to Luke was at least hypocritically sincere.

26

But that is AFTER 20 years of loyal service, in whicih time he never seems to have taken an apprentice. He’s even called out by Leia as being the Emperor’s toadie.

It is only in the face of finding out after 20 years that the Emperor had in fact lied to him about his children, having one of them in front of him who isn’t folding like a house of card (ie, the kid has power), and having had some measure of time to mull it over, that he makes this offer to Luke.

And even after that, he loyally brings his son to the Emperor and stands by while Palpatine is, intially at least, killing Luke. It is quite the internal struggle that makes him turn and save his own son in the end.

To me, that was never really the scene of “redemption” that they made it out to be. It’s not a return to the good side of the force, it is killing your evil master who you’ve loyally and slavishly served for 20 years (due to a LIE), because at the very end of it, you’ve not only discovered that lie, but on regaining your child, the asshole is killing that kid right before your eyes.

27

I actually think that Vader was capable of throwing lightning around, but if he actually tried he would short himself out. High voltage+ sensitive electronics you need to live is never a good combination.

28

The post-IV novel Splinter of the Mind’s Eye describes Vader using some kind of projected energy-fist in an attack, probably akin to something Green Lantern would create. Luke, his prodigy-powers growing, repels it, to Vader’s surprise.

29

Didn’t Luke make out with Leia in that novel, too?

30

They had a romantic staring moment, but I don’t recall it going further than that.

31

So, question: Say Maul kills Obi-Wan or gets scared off somehow-does Palpatine have Tyrannus kill him, or does he use Maul as the “public” face of the enemy and Tyrannus to secretly manipulate stuff, then pit them against each other when he’s in power?

32

She calls him TARKIN’S toadie.

The fanwanking brings some order to the Sith apprenticeship concept (its nicely played in “Knights of the Old Republic,” too) but in terms of what George Lucas wrote, it’s inescapably true that it wasn’t really planned out and so, from start to finish, isn’t consistent or sensible.

In “Star Wars,” it’s implied, but only very vaguely, that Vader serves the Emperor directly but Tarkin… well, he must as well, unless there’s an officer above him. Vader is unquestionably the murderer of the Jedi and a former apprentice of Obi-Wan, but it’s never mentioned that he’s the apprentice of the Emperor.

“The Empire Strikes Back” establishes the Emperor-Vader relationship, and then Vader offers apprenticeship to Luke (replacing the Emperor.) That concept is continued in “Return of the Jedi.”

It’s then the prequels where there appear to be a shitload of apprentices all over hell’s half acre.

Vader does end up looking very chumpesque, but that’s because there’s a huge disconnect between “Revenge of the Sith,” where he’s been manipulated through two movies in he most transparent, idiotic manner and is pretty much just Palpatine’s thug at that point. He’s obviously immensely talented in terms of his command of the Force, but Anakin Skywalker is just as stupid as all get-out. He’s a complete dumbass. If they had Nigerian E-mail scams in the Empire he would have fallen for one.

That character is impossible to resolve with the Darth Vader who graces the screen in “Star Wars” and “The Empire Strikes Back.” That Vader is immensely powerful, but he’s also clever, ruthless, intelligent, and just does not seem like he could be the evolution of Anakin Skywalker. Of course, a lot of time has passed, but his development into a legitimate force to be reckoned with is never really adequately explained.

33

It occurs to me that in Star Wars, everyone but Tarkin was surprised Vader could force-choke. He must have been kind of chumpy if no one respected him as a Sith Lord, with special powers.

Then Luke appears and the Emperor is all, “let’s recruit him!” Was Vader still dense enough to not realize he was recruiting his replacement?

34

“Now get your seven foot two asthmatic ass back here, or I’m gonna tell everyone what a whiny bitch you were about Padamomay or Panda Bear, whatever the hell her name was!”

35

The Emperor actually wanted Luke dead at first. It’s Vader who first suggests turning Luke rather than killing him.

From there, there’s two primary possibilities:

  1. Palpatine realized Vader wanted Luke for a power play. As said above, the Sith apprentice will eventually try to overcome the master. Palpatine wrote Vader off then and there, but played along, hoping to replace Vader with Luke.
  2. Palpatine felt secure enough in his position of power that he could survive having two apprentices instead of just one.

I’m pretty sure 1 is much more likely, especially since in RotJ Palpy says, “Take your father’s place at my side,” when Luke is ready to kill Vader. That whole thing was one big Sith power struggle, only Luke was able to resist the Dark Side better than Anakin did when facing Dooku.

Of course, given Lucas’s track record it’s probable that everything was just a series of disconnected scenes that serendipitously line up into something others can look at and make an actual story out of.

36

Here’s a quote from a Holocron attributed to Palpatine, EU of course:

I think Palpatine was trying to, effectively, find an apprentice (the “master of nothing” line in mind) but at the same time one messed up enough to not have any real power, with the physical deformities being a bonus in the end. The main key to this was that everything he did was for Padme, hiding his kids’ existence from him was a step to make sure he didn’t become ambitious to help them in some way. When, lo and behold, this Skywalker fellow turned up I think Sidious had pretty much accepted he was screwed, but tried one last gambit (tempting Luke) to prevent downfall at the hands of Vader. This obviously failed.

(Well, okay, if you take EU as canon practically the entire movie series was utterly worthless in terms of actually changing more than two things, but still)