So, was Darth Vader really kind of a chump?

I get the distinct impression that Vader was really a disappointment, and that he was more or less a “placeholder Sith”, a tool to be used, but not really worthy of becoming the next Sith lord. Sort of like Darth Maul, really, who was an attack dog, but was ultimately easily replaced by Dooku.

In fact, I gather that Vader wasn’t really even as desirable as Dooku (Darth Tyranus) as an apprentice, since his Force potential was severely curtailed by his injuries at the hands of Obi Wan. Also, Dooku was vastly rich, influential, and charismatic. Much more Sidious’s speed.

So, did Sidious only rescue Anakin from the lava and promote him to Sith status because “well, I don’t really have another candidate in the wings, and I can’t afford to lose ANOTHER apprentice. Shit, why did I have this schmuck kill Tyranus? Might as well put him back together until something better comes along.”


I figured Sidious may have realized the retirement plan for Sith masters left something to be desired, so he may have wanted his apprentice disabled, but everyone’s motivations were kind of muddled in the films and I haven’t read any “Extended Universe” material on the subject.

I think Sith Masters don’t care about an apprentice and do only want an “apprentice” so they can do their bidding for them. An overglorified assistant under the veil of being called an apprentice.

Vader wanted to do the same with Luke afterall at the end of ESB. “Join me and together we can destroy the emperor and rule the galaxy as father and son.” or some such along those lines. Sith only ever want an apprentice to help them carry out their own plans, not because they want to help teach a young person new skills to help them survive in a bad job market or something.

I dunno, but Vader really sucks at recruiting new apprentices.

Well, if you’ve hatching a plot that will make you emperor of the whole freakin’ universe, the last thing you want is an apprentice who’s going to stick a shiv in you on the way home from the coronation. You’d want a second-in-command who’d watch your back, but without the ambition or the skillz to think he could be top dog.

Which is a bit of a weakness in the whole line-of-succession plan for the Sithies, isn’t it? If each one has to take an apprentice who’s just a little bit weaker, eventually we’re supposed to tremble in fear of Rick Moranis.

Vader was the perfect tool for the Emperor: once he got used to the dark side, he was more than any Jedi, probably including Yoda could handle, but crippled in such a way that he was not a credible threat to the Emperor. Besides which, Vader/Skywalker was always a tool. He didn’t know what it was he wanted, so he assumed that he wanted power and prestige. Luke, while tempted to seek power to accomplish his goals of restoring the Republic, never wanted to rule himself as it simply didn’t interest him. The Emperor, Dooku and Maul and Vader all thought it would be cool and fun to rule.

The few non-movie books I’ve read suggest that the Emperor spent all of his time studying dark side arcana, and not administering the Empire. He used the tools of government to assist his research, but he probably could have accomplished a lot more following the lead of a thousand years of his predecessor Sith Masters by laying low and doing the same thing and had more time for it.

Of course it is suggested in RotS that he was looking for a way to use the force to achieve immortality. He probably should have learned it from Plagieus before offing him.

The idea is that the apprentice can’t take over until they’re stronger than their master. If that doesn’t happen, the master stays in charge.

This is an improvement over the old way, which had enough apprentices that they could gang up on their masters while they are still individually too weak.

So, what you are saying is that Dmitry Medvedev is Darth Vader to Putin’s Sidious? Of course, how’d that work out for him? Not too well, as I recall. Apparently, the power of the Dark Side is no match for an open ventilation shaft.

<George Sr.>“And that’s why you always put up hand rails!”</George Sr.>



THAT dude has given me nightmares…just saying :slight_smile:

[anguished]But he was the CHOSEN ONE![/anguished]

Right, he was, he brought balance to the force. The Jedi were in imbalance, they had too much power over the Sith. Vader brought balance to the force. :wink:

George Lucas has officially disavowed this fanwank, but I love it.

“He is the Chosen One. He will bring balance to the Force!”

Hmmm…Pre-Anakin, thousands of Jedi, and two Sith (a Master and an Apprentice). Post-Anakin, still two Sith; now there are only two Jedi–a Master (Yoda) and his [kinda-sorta] Apprentice, Obi-Wan.


“Truly, balance to the Force, he brought. Equal in numbers, the Light Side and the Dark Side are. Screwed the pooch we have!”

Verbs at end of sentences I put. Mmm, yes.

Personally, I like the fanwanky explanation better than George’s official “balance is when there are no Sith” reasoning. That aint balance.

It seemed to me that Palpatine WANTED Anakin over Christopher Lee. Yes, he was being evil by encouraging Anakin to kill him, but I think it was more than just evil fun and jerkiness and a test. I think he wanted him specifically.

Ani was well on his way to becoming nearly as emotionally handicapped as he was physically. He really had no ambition and fell into the “yes master” routine easily. I think Palpatine knew he could sleep at night for a long time before Anakin would start something. I think Christopher Lee would have tried to off Palpatine every single day if they had worked together much longer.

Palpatine built Anakin up then broke him down. Perfectly subservient… until that last day. Kinda like Voldemore, he underestimated the power of love.

(assuming this wasn’t a big woosh overy my head) As for Anakin messing up the balance because there were just two Jedi to two Sith instead of no Sith, he brought balance at the end of ROTJ. He brought balance to the force. No one said WHEN he’d bring that balance. :slight_smile:

I think Vader was really effective hired help.

I’ve watched at least parts of all 6 the last couple days and although I am impressed with the details of the CGI and more modern effects, I do think muppets and make-up were better.

Why are there all these Star Wars questions all of a sudden? Is there some kind of marathon playing on US TV?

Yes :).

Yes, there is. I forget which cable channel, but today I saw bits of the 1st movie (ep. 4) and some of the 2nd (ep. 5).

Have you ever noticed how much Luke looks like a young Obi-Wan?

Maybe a whole lotta people were playing him for a chump.

Also, Yoda snagged his ATM card.
But you didn’t hear that from me. Lil green bastard is mean.

Of course he would! After all, the name change fools no one! Would you want to have to keep perpetual watch over Count Dracula?

As for Anakin “bringing balance to the Force”- he’s my version- there’s the Light Side & the Dark Side. You can be on the LS & apostasize over to the DS. You could start out on the DS and stay there. However, until Anakin/Vader, no one who has either started on the DS or gone from LS to DS has come back to the LS.