The obvious solution is: build a Palestinian state and make it highly prosperous-endow it with a high-tech sector, and make an attractive place to invest. That way, the Palestinians will forget about their aspirations to occupy Israel, and concentrate upon having a nice home and eating out in restaurants.
Which begs the question: what became of the tens of billions of $, given by the US, the EU, and the rich arabs states, to the PA? Was it all stolen/squandered?
With what has been spent on weapons (in the ME), the place could have been made into a paradise on earth, with high-rise office buildings, thriving farms and factories, etc. Instead, there has been (ruinous) war after war, after war.
Why couldn’t the Gaza Strip be like present-day Quatar or Bahrein?:smack:
Pride. People (not just Palestinians) on the whole would rather reign in Hell.
So if Israel’s neighbors ever succeed in defeating Israel militarily, THEN Israel might be willing to under terms they find unfavorable (we can discuss what this means) but until then, they know they have a military advantage so they won’t.
You’re basically saying that if they don’t like the deal Israel is offering them now, they should try to kick its ass until Israel becomes willing to offer them a deal they can live with.
Surely you know about the Arab Peace Initiative:
It doesn’t mean that Hamas and Hezbollah have signed on to it but even their positions have shifted. It certainly means that the “arab nations” have “promised dramatically improved relations” I’m not really sure what you mean by profit, are you saying that perhaps Israel could start handling oil sales for the arabs or something?
Cite please.
I can’t believe that people are trying to argue that Israel didn’t NEED US financial and diplomatic aid over the decades or that Israel doesn’t need US support today.
Israel’s hands aren’t tied by US dollars going into Israel, Israel’s hands are tied by its need for US goodwill, something they have been steadily losing over the last few decades.
What’s your point? Was there any fucking doubt what the FUCK I was talking about when I distinguished Arabs and Jews? Yes I know there are arab Jews, whats your point? Are you trying to say that Judaism predates Islam? Is this supposed to be news? There were arabs before there was Islam.
Is there any fucking doubt that the middle east was overwhelmingly arab (non-Jewish, Jeez are we going to have to append the words non-Jewish every time we are talking about arabs that aren’t Jewish?) and that the land that is now Israel was overwhelmingly arab until the Aliyahs?
Is there any FUCKING doubt WHEN the arab states expelled the Jews?
They weren’t there first (not in any meaningful sense) no matter how you want to revise history. You literally have to go back MILLENIA to be able to make a claim for a Jewish state based on that criteria.
If Israel’s neighbors manage to gain the upper hand militarily there won’t be a need for any negotiations because there won’t be an Israel. I wish people would keep this in mind when they discuss this situation and what the consequences for Israel are if they screw up.
Historical references to Israel predate any references to “arabs”
Well, as you know there are arab christians and arab jews who brought the arab language and culture to the holy land long before Islam. Perhaps you should stick with Muslims vs Jews.
The estimate for Jews that were expelled from Muslim lands comes in at around 0.8 to 1 million. Much higher than the UN estimate for Palistinians, 7.1 million , who fled or were expelled out of Israel. Before Israel, Palistine was simply a province in largely an Arab empire ruled by Turks and briefly the British. So, we basically have a trade off, resulting in an accretion of Jews in a certain region of that empire who became autonomous, self governing and excercising the same sovereign right to implement selective immigration that any other country split off from the old Ottoman empire has.
No, I’m saying that Israel has no incentive to deal on equal terms with people are militarily weak and eager to call for the destruction of Israel. Basically… fuck 'em. If they get some serious military muscle and/or become willing to talk to Israel like grown-ups, things might change.
Until and unless they do, what value does this initiative have?
Let them declare that people who have visited Israel can now move freely among the Arab nations for the purposes of trade and tourism, for starters. No more of this pissant “two passport” crap.
Aw, man. This thread was more fun when it was all about calling The Facts a stupid Nazi.
Well, I have a degree in history, so I am competent to fix historical errors, but, for the life of me, I can see none. I believe that you want some sort of judgement call, instead of a historical error solution? Well, here is one. The historical facts are that Israel did not steal any of the land. They bought it (other than what happens via the spoils of defensive war, which, EVERY group will take, and keep, Palestinians, Jordanians, all Musllims, etc…). So, the proper thing to do, to fix any problems of current ownership, is to get some Muslims that want to own the land to gather together, as Herzog’s (?) group did, and offer to buy it from the Israelis. If the Israeli’s do not sell it, let the Muslims, who were squatters on the land from whom the Zionists bought it, offer somebody else money for land. Say, Jordan? If the Jordanians do not buy it, let the Jordanians apply to the US for aid, since the Muslims will probably attack them.
Then, let the Jews fix the Jewish problem.
Best wishes,
hh
Best wishes,
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You were quoting someone else I think you messed up witht he embedding.
WTF does that matter?
Actually, that’s much lower.
So you were confused when I said arabs? You didn’t know what I meant?
The reason I avoid using muslim is because I don’t think this conflict that was birthed by Judaism or Islam. I think this is a conflict that was nborn from Zionism.
Yeah yeah, I’ve heard the population transfer argument before and it is bullshit. I think the expulsion of the Jews by the arab states was unconscionable but the population transfer argument is bullshit. You can’t seriously be trying to say that all teh jews in Israel came from other arab states. Of course not. Israel was created largely to create a place for the world’s Jewish population not to create a place for the Jews within the former ottoman empire to congregate.
We are where we are and we can’t turn back the hand of time and recreate Israel in Argentina (and as some have pointed out, a South American Israel may not have been as successful at attracting jews as an Israel that was in the Holy Land, but it wasn’t mere population transfer like Pakistan/India.
What happens when Iran gets the nuclear bomb? Every arab state is going to poour its resources into a nuclear program. Even if Iran doesn’t go nuclear, what happens if Pakistan gets radicalized? Or Turkey? In every war that Israel has fought to date, Israel’s forces outnumbered or outgunned its enemy. This would not be the case if Turkey, Iran and Pakistan got in on the action. You SURE you want the stand behind the “we kicked their ass so we get to do what we want” philosophy?
Aprox. 1/2 of the Jewish pop. of Israel is middle-eastern in origin. Make of that what you will.
To my mind, it certainly adds legitimacy the the Pakistan/India comparison. Of course it is not wholly comparable.
Peace. Peace is the incentive. When you say “talk like grown-ups” you mean, “do what you want”
What happens when Iran goes nuclear? What happens when Turkey and Pakistan get radicalized? Then it will be too late to negotiate and build good will.
You said:“As an alternative, the Arab nations could promise dramatically improved relations and trade, offering Israel a chance to significantly profit, but they can’t even bring themselves to do that, since the empty rhetoric about destroying Israel (someday) is useful.”
Why doesn’t the arab peace initiative satisfy that critieria at least for every country other than Palestine and Lebanon? You are rejecting peace with every other arab state because Lebanon and Hamas aren’t part of the agreement. WTF was the point of declaring peace with Egypt if the PLO wasn’t part of the deal?
So THAT is the hold-up? Do you understand what the Arab Peace Initiative means when they say they want to “normalize relations with israel”? It includes things like recognizing Israeli passports and stuff like that.
Just setting the record straight.
I’m glad someone’s paying attention. That 7.1 milion should read 0.71 million.
So there was no confiscation of Palestinian land WITHIN Israel?
And where do you come up with the notion of “defensive spoils of war”?
We’ve done this a million times. Look at the maps of Jewish land ownership before 1948. It does not come close to comprising the modern state of Israel or even the state of Israel proposed by the UN.
http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Maps/Story571.html
http://www.zionism-israel.com/maps/Palestine_Land_Ownership.htm
We are where we are but you are revising history to gloss over the fact that we did not get here by virtue of the exercise of jewish rights.
Turkey and Pakistan turning to radicalism will, if it happens, certainly have very little to do with Israel’s concessions (or lack of them) in the ongoing peace process, and much to do with the increasing popularity of Islamic radicalism generally in those countries.
In short, the two are mostly independant variables: Israel could make all the concessions in the world, and those countries could still turn to radicalism (and hate Israel); conversely, Israel could make no concessions whatsoever, and they could not - assuming they turn to some sort of pragmatism and away from Islamic radicalism.
Note that this has nothing to do with the desireability of making concessions in their own right - but the notion that a failure to do so will result in a catestrophic lack of good will in places like Iran and Pakistan is nonsense. Their hatred of Israel is not based on their perception of Israeli negotiating behaviour - it is ideological.
Israel attempting to placate or appease the current gov’t of (say) Iran is a hopeless endeavour.
You’re making the assumption that all the land not owned by Jews was owned by Palestinians. This isn’t true. In fact, the vast majority of the land here has always been owned by the state, be it Ottoman, British or Israeli.
You second chart only shows what portion of the privately-owned land (a small portion of the total land) was owned by Arabs vs. Jews. It says nothing about state-owned land.
As I understand it, the philosophy is “we kicked their ass, so let them show some respect before we concede anything.” I’m personally disinclined, and I can certainly understand why Israel is disinclined to make nice with Arab nations whose daily rhetoric is about destroying Israel.
Personally, I think they’re more likely to use nukes on other Muslim nations than on Israel, since nuking Israel even once means the utter destruction of Iran.
I have hopes for Turkey’s military cracking down on radicals as they have in the past, and Pakistan has India to contend with. I’m not sure there’s all that much goodwill to lose, frankly.
And you said “It doesn’t mean that Hamas and Hezbollah have signed on to it…” Well, get back to us when they do, okay? Without their compliance, any such initiative, even if it has a nice sweeping capitalized name like “The Arab Peace Initiative”, is useless, yes?
Heck, I’ll write it out in a most dramatic fashion…
The Arab Peace Initiative
Pretty, huh? Feel free to imagine angels singing in the background as you read that if it will make the phrase ever more special and magical for you. And do be so kind as to let us know when and if Hamas and Hezbollah sign on and we won’t have any more rockets crossing the border or suicide bombers wandering into pizzerias. Thanks ever so much.
Can you provide a cite for the approximate ratio of arab Jews in Israel?
Pakistan/India was not some post hoc justification, I think the use of this rationale in the Israel context is post hoc. Like I said, we are where we are. We can’t go back but we shouldn’t rewrite history simply because the new bversion provides a more favorable context during negiotiations for one side or the other.