So what is the real deal with the French?

Factual Questions
21

Hear, hear!

We stood by, refusing to help anybody because of our Neutrality Act, while Hitler overran France. Then our population began to get a little bit uneasy about the possibility of a complete German victory which would have left us pretty much alone. So we began to make tentative steps toward helping Britain a little. We didn’t get into the business of “liberating France” until we ourselves were attacked and even then we didn’t declare war on Germany until forced to.

The invasion, I think, went into France and liberated it first because that’s where good beaches for landing were available to us. If there had been as good a place, closer to Germany we might very well have gone in there and let France wait awhile.

It is hard to convey the isolationism in the mid-west, or at least my part of Iowa, in 1939-40. And I think that isolationism was widespread as witnessed by the aforementioned Neutrality Act. Over and over I heard people around me say, “That Roosevelt won’t be satisfied until he gets us into a war. Well, we pulled their chestnuts out of the fire last war and we ain’t doing it again!”

So you can think that France “owes us” support if you want to. Maybe in some instances, yes, but not blind support on the basis of assumed past favors. But in general I think our “rescue” of France is WWII “just happened” when it did because it was on the road to Germany.

22

It did count for something. Firstly, you didn’t have the political upheaval that such an action would have caused back home and secondly the French don’t hate you like some of Eastern Europe hated the Soviets. :rolleyes:

23

Here’s my two euro cents worth…

The French feel very intimidated by whaty they percieve as the Anglo-Saxon model and method.

They have rules regarding the amount of “foreign” ie english language, content that radio and TV can play. They also have a laughable academy to de anglisise their language (eg un computer becomes un autonateur). THis all stems from a seige mentality.

Their foreign policy is based on naked self interest (as arguably is the US and UKs). However if those self interests differ then there will be tensions. Their two-bob armaments industry being an obvious case.

Anyway, you lot should worry, they’re only 22 miles from us and they can walk through the tunnel!

24

First off, they are under seige. Practically all of their television is american in origin. They language is undergoing an onslaught of english words. They’re using more and more american products. Make no mistake, they are under seige. Sure, I don’t like it when they dub everything. But I live in a country where my language is the predominant influence in the world (as in, if someone speaks a second language, it’s often english) and I don’t feel as if my culture is threatened by a different one.

I for one don’t feel that they aren’t supporting us because they are intimidated by our method…if anything, if they were intimidated they’d follow us! Isn’t that how it works when big guns are involved?

EVERYONE’S foreign policy is based on naked self-interest to a large extent. We are not contemplating striking Iraq for the hell of it, or on behalf of another country. We are contemplating it because we think they might kill us and because our economic interests are threatened.

True, France does have a lot of ties in the middle east (even though they have enormous racism in their population against middle easterners and northern africans) and they don’t want to burn their bridges. That’s their prerogative. They work in their self-interest, we work in ours, and if these interests happen to coincide then great! That doesn’t mean that allies can’t support one another ever, but this is something really big and involves killing people. They are not going to make that decision based on some possible debt owed from sixty years ago or any other reason than their present policy and the opinions of the population now.

25

Well the French sophistication (and I don’t necessarily regard that word in a positive way) is my own opinion from having lived there.

The war of 1812 came about seven years too late to help. As far as the situation in Europe was concerned Napoleon was on top and we were just chiming in. More like a jackal going for scraps than an ally. As it turned out John Bull wasn’t down for the count after all and we got our nose bloodied. If we’re talking about gratitude between peoples it’s no odds who the government of France is.

As far as what would the French have us do I obviously can only give my opinion which is worth little as I’m not French and don’t pretend to have an advanced understanding of their culture. I can give my impressions What their worth They mostly key in with the, what we see as cynicism bit. I think a lot more French then Americans would agree with the following.

You don’t like Saddam? Fine kill him and make it look like somebody else did it. If you have to just kill him and then loose the paperwork about who ordered it done If you like we’ll kill him for you but you owe us a favor.

Problem with terrorists? Make a list and snuff the bastards. If you can’t find them, kill their associates, family members, high school friends et. the Russians did this against mideast terrorists years ago and you know what? They stopped messing with the Russians. Above all don’t admit you’re doing this to anybody, least of all the public. We don’t want to know. Just get the job done. We hired dirty scum-suckers like you to run the place because it’s a dirty job, now get on with it.

A lot of Americans and English run afoul of the French because they don’t even try to understand the first thing about them. A common complain is, “the French are rude”, as opposed to the English are so polite.
The picture is a lot more complicated, first it depends on the social background of the person but lets assume a ‘typical ‘ respondent.

The French are extremely polite, but they feel no obligation to return politeness for rudeness and they have different ideas about what is rude. Being polite to a rude person strikes them as condescending and hypocritical, when the French don’t like you they’d just as soon spit in your eye as look at you. They have their own ideas about what’s rude and they expect you to learn them if you’re visiting their country.

For example, dress is to the French the first line of communication. It should be appropriate to the situation to dress casually when more formal clothing is called for is disrespectful. When American tourists, who obviously could afford fine clothes come into a high-end boutique dressed in sweatpants and puffy sneakers the shop assistant takes this as a direct insult and regards them as boorish.

The English by contrast regard unflappability and politeness as extremely important. It doesn’t matter if they think you are something they would scrape off their shoe and burn, it will only make them more rigidly polite. This isn’t about being nice, it’s about being superior. The English have politeness contests, like rams butting heads where two people will underhandedly insult each other in conversation, the first one to let his poise slip is the loser.

The English think the French are over-excitable and rude, the French think the English are arrogant hypocrites, no wonder they’ve had so many wars.

26

Uh, no. Canadians call it “The War of 1812.”

UncleToby:

Oh, what a load of crap. Speaking as neither an American nor a Frenchman, I can assure you they’re equally “sophisticated.” Four words: Jean Marie Le Pen.

27

Well thank you very much for pointing this out. You’re a most perceptive chap;)

And is it no wonder we won all the wars!

28

Well thank you very much for pointing this out. You’re a most perceptive chap;)

And is it no wonder we won all the wars!

29

“The French are generally much more advanced and sophisticated than Americans when it come to politics.”

If socialism is more advanced and sophisticated, why does it fail everywhere it is tried?

My opinion is that the French desperately want to believe that they still are a player on the world stage, and resent our position. They are like a bratty little brother.

30

When did the French become socialist?

31

Please RickJay, do not involve the entire country in those four words… That is just not fair! That was a low blow!

Very very interesting thread, thanks to all that are educating me on politics in general!

Ok ok keep going!

32

Americans in glass houses, old chap…

33

Texican:

Well advanced can mean farther along (as in farther down the road to perdition) as well as imply superiority. I don’t think the French are jealous of American power at all. They are concerned, as a horse would be if he were in the same stall as an elephant, but not jealous. They are also concerned about ‘cultural pollution’. They see some things in American culture as debasing the public taste by pandering to the lowest common denominator. They also see lots of things they like a lot.
Rickjay:

Sophistication has a lot of other meanings besides worldly and refined. Look it up. LePen has more to do with the other characteristics I mentioned in my opinion. Anyone who sees things as they are knows a multiethnic society is a great strain. Americans generally feel it’s worth the trouble as a matter of principle. Perhaps more French (but not a lot more) see that principle as fuzzy-brained idealism. They see Algerians and others as foreigners who cause trouble and see no reason to put up with it. We see this as cynical and selfish, they see it as clear-headed and honest.

34

Eisenhower said during WWII, “The heaviest cross I have to bear is the Cross of Lorraine.”

Part of the problem is that France was so quickly defeated early in WWII. As a result, de Gaulle copped an attitude to be sure that no one looked down on the French, and they would get their share after the Nazis were defeated. Since the war, their defeat in Viet Nam, the loss of their colonies, their desire (like the Saudis) to play both ends against the middle in the Cold War between the USSR and the US, and the fact that Germany out-performed them economically ever since the 50s, and you have a country poised to be prickly. They pride themselves on their culture, even though blue jeans and Hollywood are overruling it.

Plus they do a lot of business with Libya and other outlaw regimes, as well as Iraq, so they have business reasons to be obstructionist about the ‘axis of evil’.

Of course, this is a culture that thinks Jerry Lewis is funny, so they may not be susceptible to rational explanations.

Regards,
Shodan

35

Ok, sligh highjack here.

Where do the legend that French people like Jerry Lewis come from?!?! I have heard it so many times since I am in the United States, and barely knew the guy when I was living, growing up in France??!

36

I think this is old, old news, maybe from 30 years or more ago. A good many people in the US thought Lewis was funny, but that was even longer ago.

I thought it was Winston Churchill who made this remark.

37

There is a big difference between us wearing sweatpants into their stores and their supporting countries like Iraq with weapons/anything else. There is a big difference in self-interests that include defending against an aggressor vs. supplying a known aggressor. Would France just resume selling weapons to Iraq if there wasn’t an embargo?

38

Well understanding the French is part of your rather sweeping question and understanding the way the French people think is part of that. The other part is understanding French politicians, which I don’t even pretend to do but I think I’ve gone some ways to explaining that while the French public might disagree with their politicians they will do less to restrain them in international affairs than we might. Their attitude is; “What do you expect? These people are horrible.”

From the French POV Saddam is our problem and as long as they don’t stand next to us they won’t get hit. They think, “OK you’re always saying how big and strong you are, take him out if you want to, but don’t expect us to cheer you on while you just poke a hornet’s nest”. Sure they’ll sell him weapons, they’d sell him weapons if he was going to use them on French people, like I said the politicians are scum, why do you think the French have such a low opinion of them, they aren’t fools!

39

There seem to be an implicit assumption that France has been particulary eager to sell weapons to Irak.

I don’t know the figures, but I would be very interested in knowing the total value of weapon sales to Irak by western countries (USA, France, Germany,…) during, say, the last thirty years…