So What was Saddam Up To?

Great Debates
21

I am disputing this claim. Please provide a cite for “many truckloads of stuff sent by SH into Syria.” Then provide a cite for any evidence whatsoever from post-invasion Iraq that they had the means to produce WMDs, or any stockpile of WMDs. Then provide a cite for any time in history when any country has ever had a weapon of mass destruction (or hell, any kind of weapon at all!) and then, instead of using it when a foreign power invaded and was about to take the capital, shipped it off to a neighboring country.

If they didn’t use the laser-guided nuclear anthrax when the 101st Airborne was bearing down on Baghdad, they didn’t have it. Why build an expensive and potent weapon and then not use it when your national survival is threatened?

22

Nazi Germany had acres of poison gas and did not use it to stave off defeat. Japan had and used biological weapons against the Chinese, but did not use them against the Americans. The Soviet Union had lots of stuff, but thank God decided not to use them to lash out at the last minute.

23

What, you’re letting the Ottomans off the hook? Why not the Crusaders too? Or the Persians and the Greeks?

24

If you don’t know that SH had thusands of Tonnes of WMD (most of which were destroyed after Operation Desert Storm, but 10% was missing, which is what the UN Inspectors were looking for), then you don’t know enough about the subject to ask for cites. :dubious: Nor am I going to respond to your 3rd Cite request, as that’s a request for a hijack. :dubious:

However, GSV Consolation of Dreams made a *reasonable *request for a cite, and so here are several: “Saddam Hussein has made extensive preparations to flee Iraq–and has already smuggled his family out to Syria,” reports the Australian Daily Telegraph. “Just days before the bombardment of Baghdad began, Saddam’s first wife Sajida–mother of his heirs Uday and Qusay and daughters Raghad, Rana and Hala–fled to Damascus with three lorryloads of possessions and 60 bodyguards.” (Lorryloads is British for “truckloads.”

“British newspapers have reported that Saddam’s wife, Sajida, fled to Damascus with his three daughters - along with 60 bodyguards and three truckloads of belongings - a few days before the start of Operation Iraqi Freedom.”

"During a television appearance, Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon says: “[w]e believe that biological and chemical weapons that Saddam Hussein wanted hidden were transferred to Syria.” The prime minister subsequently indicated that this information had not yet been confirmed. In Iraq, UNMOVIC inspectors continue their efforts to verify Iraq’s declarations on the status of its WMD programs.
—Paul H. B. Shin, “Saddam Hiding Arms in Syria – Sharon,” Daily News (New York), 25 December 2002, p. 9.

March 2003
Sources in Jerusalem claim that Britain has informed Israel that it has warned Syrian President Bashar al-Assad not to store Iraq’s WMD in his country or cause an escalation along the Lebanese border with Hizballah’s help. The warning was relayed to Bashar al-Assad by a special British emissary several days prior."

Responding to reporters’ questions, the head of the U.S. Iraq Survey Group (ISG), David Kay, says that the group has “multiple reports from Iraqis of substances being moved across borders.” Kay further notes that there were movements of Iraqi military and scientific officials to Syria and Jordan before and immediately after the beginning of the war. Kay also says that the ISG does not know if any of these movements were directly related to Iraqi WMD programs."
http://www.nti.org/e_research/profiles/Syria/Biological/3345_4697.html

SH did send a lot of his airforce to his ex- enemy Iran before Desert Storm, so he has been know to “stash” stuff whne he knows the uSA will destroy or sieze it.

25

Iran was never an “ex-enemy” of SH - they were a consistent enemy. Iran gave not a single plane back.

Anyway, Syria was also not so fond of SH ( they sent an armored division to fight in GW I ) and it is IMO a near-certainty that any useful material SH sent across the border to Syria would quickly become Syrian property, also never to be returned, something Saddam should have been well aware of. At any rate three confirmed truckloads ain’t much.

Of course that doesn’t rule out the possibility you are correct. SH was not always entirely logical in his dealings. But I have yet to see much to confirm it in my mind.

  • Tamerlane
26

Let’s remember that biological and chemical weapons have a limited shelf life; you can’t stick them in a freezer and keep them there indefinitely. Any non-nuclear WMDs Saddam had left over from the late '80s and early '90s would have turned into useless sludge before the turn of the century.

As for the “why?” posted by the OP, my guess is that he wanted to keep his neighbors – who were also his enemies – guessing as to what his real strength levels were. Keeping Iran and Syria guessing was an easy way to prevent them from invading.

27

If you still believe that Iraq had militarily significant Weapons of Mass Destruction at the time of the March, 2003 invasion, then you don’t have any credibility. There is no evidence whatsoever that was the case. The “he transferred the weapons to Syria” is a conspiracy theory on par with the moon landing hoax. Worse, in fact, because no one ever died as a result of the moon landing hoax bullshit. It presupposes that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction, but there’s no evidence of that. Here’s what the Iraq Survey Group said in a late addendum to its report:

No evidence, only speculation on possibilities of possible limited amounts of WMD-related materials, with no possibility of any confirmation of this speculation, and no infrastructure in place in Iraq to actually produce any chemical, biological or nuclear weapons to be transferred.

28

Did I say he did?

But you asked… “Then provide a cite for any evidence whatsoever from post-invasion Iraq that they had the means to produce WMDs, or any stockpile of WMDs.”… without giving a date. If you don’t know he had a stockpile of literally thousands of tonnes before Operation Desert Storm, you don’t know much about this subject. True, there was no evidence of either after the Invasion, but SH had- at one time- a HUGE stockpile. There have been some here who have claimed that SH never had ANY WMD at all, at any time. That is clearly incorrect. You do admit that prior to Desert Storm he had thousands of Tonnes, yes? And some good portion of that was/is “missing or unaccounted for”?

At this point in time, most would have to concede that it likely was destroyed at some point in time or that SH’s records were crappy and they showed he had more than he really had. Of course, the possibility remains that some long-past-it’s-expiration-date stockpile could still be found buried in the desert somehwere. Hardly a danger except as hazmat, sure.

Whether or not he shipped any WMD to Syria or not, the Isrealis were convinced he did, and their Intelligence in that area seems to be better than ours. Note your own cite doesn’t rule out the POSSIBILITY: "As is obvious from other sections of the Comprehensive Report,* Syria was involved in transactions and shipments of military and other material to Iraq in contravention of the UN sanctions.* This indicated a flexibility with respect to international law and a strong willingness to work with Iraq—at least when there was considerable profi t for those involved. Whether Syria received military items from Iraq for safekeeping or other reasons has yet to be determined. There was evidence of a discussion of possible WMD collaboration initiated by a Syrian security officer, and ISG received information about movement of material out of Iraq, including the possibility that WMD was involved. In the judgment of the working group, these reports were sufficiently credible to merit further investigation…At best, barring discovery of original documentary evidence of the transfer, reports or sources may have been substantiated or negated, but firm conclusions on actual WMD movements may not be possible.

Based on the evidence available at present, ISG judged that it was unlikely that an official transfer of WMD material from Iraq to Syria took place.* However, ISG was unable to rule out unofficial movement of limited WMD-related materials*." (emphasis mine).

These sections do indicate doubt, yes, but hardly (as you said)“There is no evidence whatsoever…” or “… conspiracy theory on par with the moon landing hoax.” The ISG took the possibility VERY seriously and investigated it, and still here said “…firm conclusions… may not be possible…” and “…unable to rule out unofficial movement of limited WMD-related materials.”

Thus- it remains a possibility. Even if so, there couldn’t have been a lot. My WAG is that all there was in those trucks as far as WMD goes is plans and paperwork.

29

One of the many sad parts in all of this is that Saddam made the same mistake the US did-he trusted the CIA. The US trusted the CIA when we were told the Iraq had WMD. Sadam didn’t believe the US would invade because he trusted the CIA to know the truth. Saddam hoped that the possibility of having WMD would give him some leverage with his neighbors while at the same time he counted on the the west to know better and not do anything rash. Silly man.

30

We seem to asking, are the Iraqis better off than under Saddam? They seemed to be dieing piece by piece before, just in a controled dictatorship kind of way. Now, they are dying in a what for all purposes seems to look like a civil war that we are trying to control.

Which is better? To let people suffer and die under a dictatorship, or let them just duke it out. :frowning: May Allah (or/and who ever’s God) guide them and our troops.

Perhaps this belongs in the pit?

31

DrDeth repeating “there is no proof that A is not true” will not amount to “there is a scrap of evidence that A is true” no matter how loudly and repeatedly you shout it.

32

Writing “post-invasion” pretty much establishs a date after 1991.

33

They are not getting off the hook. We’re blaming the Balkans on the Ottomans.

Right. You can’t discount Iran in this. I think that Saddam was claiming to have WMD to deter the Iranians from attacking. He made a bet that the west would be able to determine that he probably had no WMD, but that Iran would not be able to verify this (at the least, he couldn’t afford to let Iran know for certain that he didn’t). Iran would have to consider this in any plans they had to attack Iraq. It was a bluff, but aimed more toward his traditional enemies in the area. After the Iran war, the Gulf War, and sanctions, Iraq had to be pretty weak. Acting that they were better armed than they were wasn’t aggression as much as it was a defense.

34

Well, Little Nemo you make a point, but in that long list of requests- I read “…or any stockpile of WMDs” as not part of the “post-invasion Iraq” clause but as another in a looooooooooooooooooong list of requests for cites, (that last one of which had been debunked by others such as Paul in Saudi). So sure, if you say “or any stockpile of WMDs” only refers to “post-invasion Iraq” (and which of two invasions? Note that Operation Desert Storm was also an Invasion, and that’s when they found the "thousands of tonnes) and isn’t part of the whole “any time in history when any country” part, well, looks like I misread. I think. Maybe. :confused:

Still, in any case- many do believe that SH shipped WMD off to Syria. Personally, I doubt it, as i said- although I think there was *evidence *of WMD. Mostly loot, I’d guess.

35

Thanks for the cite DrDeth. I can’t say I’m convinced that WMD were sent across, but it seems possible that WMD were smuggled out of country… if one accepts that there were any WMD in Iraq immediately prior to the invasion in the first place.

36

Are you using Bush’s line that if you repeat an mistatement often enough it becomes true? Let me restate - Saddam never claimed directly or indirectly to have WMDS after 91. [sigh]

37

Nonetheless, we have to admit he was behaving as if he had WMDs. His actions toward the weapons inspectors looked (to our Western eyes) exactly as though he was hiding something.

It seems he could have done more to stave off this war. I wonder why he didn’t.

38

Actually he was behaving like any slightly over proud person would when someone with a gun demands to search their house and finger their dirty laundry.

“Get fucked” may not be a rational response, but it’s what many might say.

And if one is an extremely self important mucho megalomaniac who must keep face to remain the Head Honcho (and Middle Eastern countries are not exactly in favour of touchy feely New Man leaders, let’s face it) it isn’t too hard to figure out.

39

You claimed that Saddam “might have” transferred WMDs to Syria, which is predicated on the fact that he actually possessed any WMDs in the 21st Century. This has been proven not to be the case. If there were no WMDs, there was no transfer of WMDs.

You’ve got no evidence of anything, DrDeth. All you have is hearsay and speculation. That’s all the ISG had, and they concluded that the prospect of any kind of transfer was “highly unlikely.”

40

Umm, no. It has NOT been proven that SH didn’t have WMD. What has been shown is that we can’t find any. Which is not quite that same thing, you know. If he had a few, but they were moved out of Iraq, then- we wouldn’t be able to find those, right?

GSV Consolation of Dreams- thanks. Like I said, my WAG is that all there was re WMD in those trucks was paperwork and plans for SH’s new programme (which never really got started). But who knows?