So, What's the Deal with Jehovah's Witnesses?

Great Debates
41

That’s for sure. The fact that there is an implication that the JW church is more of a cult than any other Christian sect doesn’t say much for it’s veracity, and that’s just the cover.

Then can we see some of those quotes?

All that you quoted is definitely not JW, in fact the majority of it directly contradicts JW teachings.

Thanks, I look forward to it. I’ve read Acts, Hebrews and every other book in the Bible.

Good, I look forward to that as well

Unfortunately I can’t get hold of a copy. You posted the information and I was hoping you could provide something to substantiate it.

If it satisfies you, good, but without anything to back it up and with considerable JW literature that directly contradicts it it seems a bit rich posting it as fact.

Definitely not. The number of hours I’ve spent in Bible studies and discussing the tenets of JW belief and why the are correct is huge, but not nearly as much as someone who has actually completed all the book studies necessary to be baptised. All JW’s over the age of about 12 are encouraged to take part in Bible and book studies, and all have a very good knowledge of church beliefs. This is considered necessary for completing the preaching work. In addition to this the vast majority of children have been witness to these discussions during the door-to-door work, and any arguments that are presented are discussed happily at the door, and any that aren’t discussed adequately here are brought up later for the benefit of the children

This is absolutely not true of the JW’s. No-one is automatically a Witness. You have to go through the same learning process whether you were raised in the faith or not. I think I can say I’ve got a very good handle on JW beliefs. Even if that weren’t the case I can provide numerous cites of literature dating back at least 20 years showing that what you have posted above is simply not true.

42

Seems fair enough, it is a pagan festival with only the slimmest veneer of Christianity.

Yeah, I always found that one a bit strange too. The reference concerns the head of John the Baptist but the fact that it occured on Herod’s birthday was purely coincidental as far as I can see. JW’s believe that since the only references to birthdays in the Bible (both of them!) were for heathens and associated with death they must be bad. Seems strange that you could also probably apply that same logic to a range of things, including the use of metalwork.

I don’t know how old she is, but if here mother is stopping her watching R-rated movies then she’s probably too young to view them in a cinema anyway, so it’s not just her mother that thinks that she shouldn’t watch them.

Yep, ‘The Lord’s Evening Meal’, there’s wine involved, just like most other Christian religions.

‘The New System’ is the usual term, or maybe just ‘The Ressurection’

The Watchtowers are basically just sermon lists that get distributed worldwide when it comes to the services. They refer to Biblical passages and give the Church’s official interpretaion and views. Plus there’s question at the end to answer, kind of like a study guide

Yeah, Christians believing sex outside of marriage is a sin. How wierd!

Nah, you’re basically right.

Yeah, but you got it basically right. We had a lady in my congregation when I was young who used to take the bread and wine. She just said that she got a revelation from the Lord one day that she was going to heaven. She wasn’t treated in any special way, it was just accepted. She’s dead now, so I guess she know’s whether she was right.

43

I disagree vehemently with the family’s relation to religion. The parents who are devout in any religion tend to be very stringent advocates of the belief system as they tell it to the children. Sdometimes the children listen, sometimes they do not.

About birthdays: In Genesis, it is written that Joseph’s interpreted dreams for two fellow inmates while he was himself in prison. One was rold he would be freed while the other was to be put to death. Sure enough, on the Pharaoh’s birthday, it came to pass. Then in the Greek Scriptures, there is written the celebration of Herod’s birthday party, in which his daughter, on behalf of her mother, requested the head of John the Baptist on a platter. There is also no recording in the New Testament of Christ’s birthday being celebrated or designated to be celebrated. This would probably explain the ambivalence Jehovah’s Witnesses have towards celebrating anybody’s birthday, including their own.

About the trinity: There is no Hebrew/Jewish concept of the Trinity. God is one true God. They never inferred nor implied in the propheses about the Son of Man that He Himself will descend on the Earth to redeem mankind. However, there were and are references to the Trinity in Egyptian and Indian religions.

44

I think it’s hypocritical for them to deny blood because of the prohibition on consuming it in Leviticus, because it also says in the Bible that if someone is sick and/or will die without food, they are allowed to consume foods normally considered unclean - there would be no sin in a starving Jew eating bacon, or bloody meat.

45

Badtz Maru
Have you got the chapter and verse for that Leviticus thing. I can’t remember it, and I’d love to bring it up next time I’m arguing this one with my brother (who’s a JW).

46

I’m sorry, I don’t…I wish I could recall the exact phrasing of it, I could look it up in an online Bible. I’m pretty sure it’s near the beginning of the dietary restrictions part.

47

Thanks Badtz Maru. If it’s in there I’ll find it eventually. I’ll let you know when I do.
Cheers.

48

When you find it, would you post it here? I’m begining to wonder if it’s in another book, because I just skimmed through Leviticus and I couldn’t find it…I KNOW it’s there, though.

49

Oops, I missed that part where you said you’d let me know. Sorry I asked a question already answered. 8^) I’m going to make a new post on it, too, in case somebody with the answer is skipping this thread…

50

Although, I think Thea got some of her cults confused. JW has plenty of bizarre beliefs. Just go to the site that andros gave us and check em out. There’s even “Satan is the invisible ruler of the world”. The blood transfusion thing alone is enough for me to write them off as loonies.

My mom loves when evenagelists come to the door. She converts them away from their beliefs. She has ‘saved’ moonies, LDS, and JW - maybe some more I am unaware of. I think its the fact that she is really nice, and patient, and that she doesn’t insist that they accept her beliefs but rather just examine their own more closely. She has done rather well with helping figure out that just because Jesus did something doesn’t meean we should do it. Like wearing sandals: I don’t know about where you live, but where I am we’re having a winter storm - sandals would be a bad idea. This leads to people accepting that circumstances make a difference. You must act appropriately for the circumstances you are in, not the curcumstances Jesus was in.

OK, enough praise of my mother. I’m an atheist, by God, and I shouldn’t be so happy about her christianity.

51

Gaspode,

Don’t have a lot of time, but I can at least start you off with this.

Quoted from the Watchtower, September 15, 1910. Direct quote by JW founder Charles Taze Russel. " Furthermore, not only do we find that people cannot see the divine plan in studying the Bible by itself, but we see, also, that if anyone lays the “Scripture Studies” aside, even after he has used them, after he has become familiar with them, after he has read them for then years- if he then lays them aside and ignores them and goes to the Bible alone, though he has understood his Bible for ten years, our experience shows that within two years he goes into darkness. On the other hand, if he had merely read the Scripture Studies with their references, and had not read a page of the Bble, as such, he would be in the light at the end of two years, because he would have the light of the Scriptures."

Note that this is a complete paragraph, not a couple of sentences and phrases lifted out of context and re-interpreted.

From “Let God Be True”

“So we see that the claim of the religionists that man has an immortal sould and therefore differs from the beast is not Scriptural” and here’s a good on for Christians- “It is clearly seen that even the Man Christ Jesus was mortal. He did not have an immortal soul:Jesus, the human soul, died.” and “At death, a man’s spirit, his life-force, which is sustained by breathing 'goes out. It no longer exists.” this last from “You Can Live, p. 77”

In other words, the human soul ceases to exist until the Resurrection. This is the idea of “soul sleep”, which is a phrase culled from some Scriptural Passages which refer to death as a “sleep”.

I have some work to do on the mistranslations, because the extensive quoting I would do could constitute copyright violations, and I don’t have time right now to cut it down to something legally quotable.

That’ll have to hold you for now, more when I have more time.
I have some hunting through the Bible to do, but trust me, the Scriptures are there. I’ve read them. Particularly one in one of the epistles that distinctly states that the Holy Spirit prays for us when we don’t know what to pray for. Definitely something a person would do, not a hand or a foot or, God help me, a stomach. I’ll be back to post some more later.

52

That would be Romans 8:26:

53

Thanks for that Thea.

OK, that’s a pisser! I’m going have to file that.
I thought we were talking about the modern church. Russell was a certifiable headcase, and if that’s the best they could find him saying then they didn’t do enough research. This is no longer official church doctrine of course. I know that doesn’t make it less true that they said it. Saying that JW’s believe this, as opposed to having believed it, is a bit like saying Catholics believe in torturing people to force them to recant heresy, or that Anglicans believe in burning witches to death. Religions change.

Not sure what this is supposed to be supporting. I’ve accepted this as true my entire life. No arguments here. It doesn’t actually use the term soul-sleep. Simply says that when yer dead yer dead. Not very comforting perhaps, but not that odd for an agnostic.

I’ll hold judgement until I see it.

That one I know, but as I said, if the holy spirit is simply an embodiment of God’s active force I can’t see it as supporting a trinity. The use of terms like ‘loving hand’ or ‘clever hands’ or ‘he’s got his brain working on it’ or ‘lead foot’ or ‘loud mouth’ are common talking about normal people with physical hands and brains. It doesn’t imply the body parts live a separate existence. The hand of God and the spirit of God are mentioned in the OT, and the Hebrews certainly never believed in a trinity.

Thanks, I hope you can. That other stuff you said about the JW’s has got to be old belief (back in the days when they still celebrated Christmas, and attended multi-denominational gatherings).

54

Nah, today the recommended process is to earnestly discuss the virtues of Christians being affirming of other beliefs, tolerant, and inclusive until they become nauseous and vomit up the evil spirit that has possessed them. :wink:

55

I have read Leviticus and one might find it interesting to know that the Talmud calls this book “The Law of the Priests” and “The Law of the Offerings”. It covers a great many things from how to deal with leprosy, sexual sin, sabbath law, and punishment for blaspheming the name of God, to name a few.

Leviticus 11 sets out the law concerning what may and may not be eaten (kosher) while Leviticus sets out the law concerning animal offerings such as lambs, oxen, and goats and how they are to be handled. The eating of blood takes up verses 10 through 16.

From the KJV:

Lev 17:10 “And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eateth any manner of blood; I will set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people…”

When one reads ALL of the chapter one should realize that the chapter deals with how to handle animal sacrifices and that eating or drinking the blood of animals is forbidden by God. It was a pagan practice of the times so I can understand God not wanting his chosen people to engage in such behaviour, he felt the same way about worshipping graven images. God seems funny that way.

Anyways… it doesn’t say a thing about receiving blood tranfusions anywhere.

I have often challenged people when they profess a certain belief based on writings in the old testament be it what they do or do not eat or whether or not they would accept blood transfusions. What about the other 600 or so laws desribed in the old testament?

Do they eat pork or shellfish?

What about those who blaspheme?

I won’t even get into the “is there or isn’t there a hell” thing (based on scripture of course).

Not bad for an agnostic, huh?

56

So if they are so strict about not consuming blood, why don’t they only eat meat that has been koshered?

57

Feynn, Avumede
The JW’s problem with blood stems not from the OT restriction, but rather from Acts 15, 29 “You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.”
Abstainence in this sense obviously means something other then not eating or dealing with animal sacrifices, since you can’t eat sexual immorality, and it’s hardly an animal sacrifice.
(Or maybe that depends how you do it!)

58

Not much to add here, but while in the Army I served with several JW’s. I can’t remember, during any of many conversations, any of them saying that they were breaking church doctrine. Also, the Kingdom Hall in Columbus, GA (outside of Ft. Benning - the home of the Infantry Training School) had many members in the service.

So I don’t believe there is anything in their faith that prevents JW’s from serving.

Anyway, isn’t it the JW’s that say something along the lines of “Give Caesar his due on earth as you give God in heaven” or something like that?

59

Xgemina
I think you might be confusing studying and baptised Witnesses. JW’s have opposed military service for at least 55 years.

60

Gaspode
True, I didn’t know if they were baptised or studying, so your propably (well, more like cerainly) correct. I have to admit the question of being full members or nor never came up.
I do recall an older guy in my basic platoon that was JW and was fairly sure he was a full member, but shrug. Nice guy, most of what I know of JW’s came from Shoe.

Out of curiosity I looked up JW in the Army Chaplain’s Handbook (if you’re curious
http://www-cgsc.army.mil/chap/relpractice/christian/JW.htm )
and they back up what you said. I was right about the respect to secular gov’t though.