Jehovah's Witnesses, please fight my ignorance

First let me assert, I open this topic with respect. I have a negative opinion on beliefs and practices such as I am aware of them, but I am open minded. I’m certainly not out to engage in any JW bashing.

Where I’m coming from: I have a co-worker who is very young (early 20s), very bright, funny, shares many of my interests and values. He also happens to be a devout JW. I’ll call him “Whitney” (huh huh, get it?)

In our office we celebrate birthdays enmasse every month. Today we celebrated the February birthdays as usual, gathering everyone in the common area, limply singing “Happy Birthday” passing out the cake, getting back to work. The common area is 7 steps away from Whitney’s desk. Today, as he does every month, he made it a point to be nowhere near his desk during the festivities. So he doesn’t celebrate birthdays. Fine, to each their own - but why not?

As any other office, we usually have a Christmas party. A few months ago, though, we made it a point to strip all trappings of Christmas, calling it a “year end” party, celebrating our accomplishments for the year. This was done to accommodate Whitney’s aversion to celebrating Christmas. He is a key contributor to our successes. He’s been part of the grind and deserves to be a part of the fun. He attends our summer party with no qualms, and the activities are identical. He doesn’t celebrate Christmas. Fine, to each their own - but why not? And why not even after our accommodations?

Whitney’s curiosity is insatiable. We’ve had cool discussions after he’d read all about relativity and quantum mechanics (the physics side, not the meta-physical). His powers of logic and reasoning are impressive as he digests and accepts these theories. But when discussions turn to evolution, the logic and reasoning facilities go into hibernation. Say what you will about the “debate” surrounding evolution, it is frustrating to see the contortions he goes through to avoid logic and reason in an apparent effort to maintain the party line. I can’t help but wonder what would happen if a line in the Bible was ever interpreted to gainsay relativity.

So as far as Whitney is concerned: he’s got some social quirks that we’ve all grown to accept. He has a frustrating ability to turn off his formidable brain - but we all have areas of our lives where emotion trumps reason. If that’s all there was to JWs I’d probably not be writing this (even in light of the famous door-to-door campaign).

But after the Year End party, today’s birthday departure, and the recent headlines about the sextuplets born in B.C., I want to understand more. Conversations with Whitney along these lines inevitably face the wall of “I don’t expect you unwashed outsiders to understand” (my words, not his - but the point seems clear).

“I’ll attend any party except birthdays and Christmas.” “I’ll accept any medical treatment except blood transfusions.” “I am mandated to spread the word.” I don’t know what verses of the Bible give such specific directives, but I have a hunch they’re tucked away into obscure corners of seldom read chapters - amongst a number of other decrees and assertions which are, in practice, ignored by JWs. e.g. the Bible says to spread the word, but it also says women should keep their heads covered.

Further: I thought JWs believe in everything any other Christian believes (Christ died as payment for the wages of sin and all that) except for the deity of Christ (he was just another prophet). So why not celebrate Christmas - or is it part of the “thou shalt notcelebrate anyone’s birthday?” (again, why not?)

In addition to an explanation for these seemingly random directives (and why they’re so fiercely practiced) - I’m curious about the apparent power the congregation/leadership has over its members. No one likes to be ostracized from any close knit society - but there seems to be more to it in the case of JWs.

I’m not clear from your post if Whitney’s beliefs are based on his religion or merely personal quirks. Which is it?

One of my best friends is a JW. His answer “December 25th is not the true date of Christ’s birth. Besides, it is just another secular holiday. We don’t celebrate anything worldly.”

Me: “Not birthdays, either, right?”

Him: “Nope.”

I went to school with a JW girl. As a kid, it struck me as very sad she’d never gotten a birthday or Christmas present.

Re: Birthdays - There are only 1 or 2 specific birthdays mentioned in the bible… at both of them something bad happened… ergo… birthdays are bad

Re: Christmas - Christ’s “birthday” - see above + the ‘fact’ that it’s not the correct date.

re: Logic - JWs fit the classic “cult” mentaltiy when it comes to being a high control group… no logic is as correct as thier own when it comes to certain topics, no matter how much “fact” goes against them… wanna see an example? Query him about: Cross vs. Stake (or what Christ died upon), What year was Jerusulam Destroyed (587 or 607)? Both of which have copious amount of secular information to back up one side (and not thiers)…

re: Sad about not getting gifts - kids are tought its 2 things - they dont have to wait for “special days” to get things and it makes god happy to do things right… you want to do things right, don’t you?

I “understand” JW not celebrating Christmas and Bdays. But why celebrate the summer party but not the Year’s End party?

Doesn’t that pretty much sum up all religions?

Because the “Year End” party is really a Christmas party? From the OP

Because he’s trying to follow the spirit of his religion’s ideas, not just the letter? It’s a pretty transparent ruse to call it a year-end party when everyone is calling “Merry Christmas!” to one another in the hallway. I’m just as skeptical when my kids’ school renamed “Easter Break” to “Springtime Break”, but it still floats around the calendar every year to match Easter. (Yet they have Yom Kippur off and it’s called Yom Kippur on the calendar. Does this make sense to anyone?)

B’days - to be more precise, the two Bible b’day celebrations are in Genesis in which a Pharoah celebrates his birthday & as part of the celebration, executes a prisoner (which was predicted by Joseph) and in the Gospels in which Herod (Antipas?) has Salome dance & John the Baptist beheaded. In Job, his grown children have parties to celebrate “their days”, for which Job offers sacrifices in case they sin during their partying, and during onesuch party, God lets Satan cave in the house killing them.

C’mas- Same principle as B’days, JC’s birthdate is not Biblically spelled out, the Dec 25 date & other C’mas customs have pagan roots, there is no Biblical command to celbrate JC’s b’day.

Easter- no Bible command to celebate the Resurrection, festival name & customs have pagan roots

Blood transfusions- the Biblical ban on “eating” blood

Oh- and regarding Christ’s status to JW’s- JW’s don’t see JC as God, equal to the Father, BUT as more more than a mortal prophet. In the beginning, Jehovah God creates His Son, Michael the Archangel. Jehovah lets Michael act as His Agent to create everything else using the Divine Power (Holy Spirit) radiating from Jehovah.
When the time comes to redeem fallen humanity, Michael becomes human, born to Mary as Jesus, grows up, gets staked out as the ransom for Adam’s sin & then rises spiritually, so that Jehovah’s special elect company be raised to Heavenly life
& the rest of redeemed humanity are raised after Armageddon to live forever on Paradise Earth. Jesus is “a mighty god”, even the Ruler of Creation, but not The LORD (JHVH) God Almighty.

Funny, on these points my sympathies are with Whitney, but I’m not a fan of office parties generally.

JWs believe that Christ was killed on a stake? Why?

The greek word “Stauros” (?) can also means “stake” is the primary reasoning… there are some other reasons they will throw out there… the most famous being an old text they will cite as evidence for the stake, but they didn’t use the right page from the text (and its all in some old language so the avg reader can’t dicern its truthfullness) and they ignored the other picture in the text that specifically mentions (and shows) the cross and attributes it to Christ;s death.

In essence, they take one page out of a book that says “a stake was commonly used for Roman executions” as proof that the alternate definition of “Stauros” as stake is correct (and everyone else got it wrong) while also ignoring the next page in the same book that says “the romans used this cross to kill christ”.

(this is a common tactic they use for many of thier proofs)

the secondary is that it sets them (the JW) “apart” from the other religions in the world.

sorry for the simulpost, Here is one of the better articles on the “Stake vs. Cross” stuff

http://www.freeminds.org/doctrine/crossfacts.htm

The most curious of the JWs beliefs (as carefully explained to me by a JW, no further cite) is that Heaven is quite small, only has enough room for 144,000 people. Unfortunately, all of the apartments are rented. When I was much younger, and this was explained to me, some people still living had already been assigned apartments (they were called “The Elect”), where they would take up residence when they died.

Heaven being full, this only leaves two possible destination for the Teeming Masses™:

  1. Hell, garden variety, pitchforks, roasting fires, etc., and

  2. A place just like the Earth, except there’s no pain, no suffering, and everyone is a Jehovah’s Witness …

I told the JW that his description had made the choice very easy for me … I’d seen what the Witnesses could do. My step-daddy married a Witness who was also an alcoholic. After trying unsuccessfully to reform her, they “shunned” her, wouldn’t speak to her, crossed the street to not interact with her in any way. Since this was in a small town, and all of her friends were Witnesses, this was crushing to the poor woman … so guess what? She drank even more …

Thanks a lot, Witnesses, but I’d rather roast in hell for an eternity than spend an unbelievably boring eternity with a bunch of you virtuous, vicious fools …

w.

What I don’t understand is, if all of heaven’s residents have been chosen, why do Jehovah Witnesses’s work so hard at getting converts? It seems to me that it would be in their best interest to keep the Gospel a secret so as to increase their likelihood of going to heaven.

The 144,000 annoited ones (a literal number taken from an otherwise figuratively interpeted passage) were “sealed” in 1935, the rest of the flock is considered the “great crowd”… this is fine as long as you consider that “way back when” in 1874, “armageddon” was supposed to be done in 1914… when 1914 came/went, the date was shifted to 1925 (“Millions now living will never die”) and then as that date came/left they decided that the members in 1935 were the annoited, and those that came after were of the “Great Crowd” (they will be the ones that serve as preists on earth, serving the king and the annoited (who rule in heaven)… of course, all this was pointing to the last days “The generation who saw the beggining of the last days in 1914” (not the end as earlier predicted) would not pass before armageddon (now in 1975).

So, If you were part of the original group of JW (not the ones who split when Russell died, but those that were with Rutherford from 1915-1935 or so) you were part of the annoited… those that came after were part of the great crowd… only the annotied had a heavenly hope, everyone else wuold get whats left of the earth.

Keep in mind, that for the JW, there is no “Hell”, only no “resurection”… means, if you die, you are simply asleep until you are resurected (if you are)…

Those that survive armageddon get to teach all those that are resurected after armageddon… those that accept that teaching get to live forever, or go to sleep. (apparently most/if not all of those that died before/during armageddon get this second chance, excpept those that died that knew the JW teachings or something like that…

It’s like a bad movie… don;t ask too many questions and don’t point out the plot holes… all of this is divinely inspired and if you don’t understand it, you simply don’t have enough faith so just accept it… reasonalbe people do, you’re a reasonable person, aren’t you?

(oh yeah, they changed the meaning of “Generation” in/about 1995 to be whatever generation happened to be there when christ started ruling… you see, he returned (invisibly) in 1874… nope make that 1914… but he hasnt started ruling yet…)

But the goal of a JW is not to go to heaven. You are going to be aware that it is for a select few and you know you’ve sinned enough that you are not going to ge tin anyway. Besides, there is no hell, everyone else just lives on Earth and maybe the Moon and other colonies after Armagedon. Seems like an ok deal.

I had a good friend in high school who was a Jehovah’s Witness. When we discussed his religion, he told me the reason he didn’t celebrate birthdays was because there is a verse that says a man’s death is more important than his birth, because he is able to (more or less) choose the circumstances surrounding his death (especially, I guess, if he’s a martyr.) Christmas is thus not important because it would be celebrating a birthday, and Jesus’ death was way more meaningful than his birth. My friend didn’t say the Pledge of Allegiance because JWs are uncomfortable with placing any government above God’s decree. Generally with my friend, these distinctions that wouldn’t seem significant to the average person where very seriously important. It is ESSENTIAL that God be called Jehovah, because that is his true name. It is ESSENTIAL to recognize that Jesus was staked and not nailed to a cross. Hell, he wouldn’t even let me call the prostitutes of the New Testament “hookers”! :slight_smile: Out of all JW beliefs, the one that most troubled me was the idea that nobody but the chosen few could talk directly to God in Paradise – everyone else had to go through Jesus. Didn’t sound very egalitarian to me.

A couple years into our friendship, I got a 14 page letter from him professing his undying love and asking me to convert (I was a Christian at the time) and be with him forever on God’s earth.

Yep, that was awkward.

Unfortunate risk of the job.