So what's the deal with the "Galactic Alignment"?

In My Humble Opinion
181

So what? I can think of two dozen different explanations for why the sun rises in the east in the morning, and the sun rising in the east “makes sense” with any one of them. That doesn’t mean they’re all equally valid. The best explanation, and the one accepted as scientific theory, is the revolution of the earth and the fact that it orbits the sun: it explains what we observe, without resorting to entities for which we have no evidence.

Other explanations (such as the god Ra carrying the sun across the sky in his solar boat) may be enjoyable to think about, sure…but we have to interact with the world daily in order to survive, and that means that our best chance of surviving and thriving comes from understanding how that world actually works instead of how we want it to work.

If you believe the world is a certain way, and you expect others to act in accordance with it, the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that your explanation is the most *complete *and the most likely.

182

This is like saying, “If I had ham, I could make a ham sandwich, but I’ll need to get bread first.”

183

No, I evidently did not know what you meant by “prove the Bible”. Your arguments earlier in this thread suggest that you are attempting to use the word “prove” to mean “establish truth about reality in a scientific or logical sense”. I simply pointed out that in this sense, the Bible (or any other religious text) is not a provable document. A large part of it is simply literature or poetry; can you “prove” a Shakespearean sonnet?

As for the historical records and observations present in the Bible, yes, we can attempt to establish whether or not those observations correlate with outside sources, including unambiguous astronomical, geological, archaeological and other evidence. Sometimes we can do this, but at other times we find no evidence that the events in the Bible actually occurred as claimed-- and without a time machine, it is impossible to do so.

If there is another document with which you are more familiar, bring it up; the same argument would still apply.

As previously explained, it is impossible, practically or philosophically, for us to establish that “everything in the Bible is true”. Dwelling on that possibility takes us out of the realm of “proof” altogether, and into pure philosophy.

And even if we could confirm that certain historical “facts” in the Bible happened as claimed, it is still impossible to prove the existence or responsibility of a supernatural force, because anything that can be “proven” by evidence according to scientific methods and processes is, de facto, a natural explanation, not a supernatural one. Science deals with what is natural. This may seem like splitting hairs, but it is an important distinction, because it is an article of faith for many religious that God/the higher power/supreme deity is supernatural, unknowable, ineffable, what have you.

Even if we could go back using a time machine and hear a voice speaking to Moses out of the burning bush, we could not be certain that whatever entity or force produced that phenomenon was “God” in the traditional sense. We’d have some answers to find, but it could have been human trickery, or aliens of some kind, or even other time travelers screwing with humanity.

184

There is no “law” involved here. What do you mean by “it is only 50/50” and “It doesn’t mean that those are the odds”? I don’t think that you understand the basics of probability.

You don’t need any kind of advanced learning to understand that “There are two possible outcomes” does NOT IN ANY WAY mean “Those two outcomes are equally likely to occur”. You can come up with obvious examples by the basketload:

You flip one hundred coins. They either all land balanced on their edge or they don’t. Do you think those are anywhere close to being equally likely?

You bet on #10 at the roulette wheel. The ball either lands on #10 or it doesn’t. Do you think that’s some kind of hidden fact that makes it an even chance to win?

You hear footsteps behind you. It’s either a bright blue Tyrannosaurus Rex brought back via unheard-of genetic engineering, wearing size 10,000 Manolo Blahnik shoes, with Jessica Upton wearing nothing but whipped cream riding on the critter’s head, or…it’s not. Do you think there’s a good chance that you’ll see Ms. Upton when you turn around?

185

Whoo, Boy! :eek: That example beats Carl Sagan’s invisible dragon all to hell.

186

Invisible dragons? Now that’s just silly.

:smiley:

187

Exactly. If we ever find solid proof to make this an actual theory, then we can make that sandwich. Right now all we have is the ham, which is the smoke from the gun, not the gun itself. I agree with Dr. Michio Kaku. He is a respected authority that I trust and agree with. Plus I’ve had an obsession with the Japanese for years. <3

188

You are correct. The point is, we have no solid evidence for it, but we have no solid evidence against it, either. There is only one reality in actuality, we just don’t know what it is for sure, yet.

189

What I meant was as proof was what you said below. By you saying it, you prove that you at least knew that is what I could have meant. I am not stupid; how can you prove literature?

This is why I said a higher being that modern humans. This could be aliens, time travelers, etc.

Off topic;
I always thought that science can never prove or disprove a god. But this guy on another forum I am debating with is trying to say science can disprove a god. Is this even remotely true? I argued, like you said, that science only deals with that is natural. Science is a method and a tool to describe the laws and functions of the physical universe. As a method, it measures by observation and records data. As a tool, it is used to find consistencies and similarities and thus arrive at logical conclusions. It is not a method or a tool designed to deal with the abstract spiritual being of God and is therefore, incapable of doing so. This does not make science an imperfect method or tool, because science does what it is supposed to do. It is a mis-use of science to try and define and prove something which is outside of its legitimate purpose. It won’t ever prove or disprove God.

His response:

Proof doesn’t exist outside of math. Secondly, science already has found evidence against God. Yahweh can be shown beyond reasonable doubt to be false through the scientific method. Perhaps it will someday be able to say for certain whether or not there is some abstract realm where a god may exist, but until it does, and until we know the makeup of such a place, it’s not fair to say that science “can’t” do that. For all you know, it might. For all you know, a god might exist in a physical place. The Mormons, for example, say God is a physical person living on another planet. There’s nothing that says a god must be ethereal or abstract. That’s just one conception of it.

Can you explain this to me? Thanks.

190

I understand what you mean.

Try this link. I don’t have time to check it. Hopefully it’s the right episode and it’s complete, etc.

Please explain any of this. If you can’t then you should watch all the other episodes. Some is crap, some is awesome like the above.

191

Don’t know if it matters to you, but Kaku was born in San Jose, CA, the third generation of his family to be in America, and the second generation born in the US. But yes, his ancestry is Japanese.

192

ALL is crap. Sure, the Puma Punku site is impressive and advanced in engineering for the time. They used material in remarkable ways, but it was readily available then: stone, copper, and primitive alloys. But just because you can’t imagine how they did it doesn’t mean aliens were involved.

I’m unfamiliar with that site compared to a favorite of mine, Easter Island. Similar claims have been made about the stone statues there, mostly by the ignorant. But archaeological expeditions such as Thor Heyerdahl’s 1950’s visit uncovered many of the likely techniques thru research and diligence, not thru fantastic postulation that aliens were responsible. It’s likely that a similar analysis could suggest how Puma Punku was built as well.

If you consider the alien hypothesis as valid, why not God Did It? Both are equally supported by the evidence.

193

No, not quite.

194

Depends on the God…and also on other postulates. A lot of people believe that the “omni-” God is logically self-contradictory, and therefore can be “disproven” simply on logical grounds. Others, obviously, disagree.

Some Gods (or claims about Gods) can be disproven by more ordinary rules of evidence. People have climbed to the top of Mount Olympus, and Zeus does not have a grand palace there. Dante’s literal version of Christian geography is false, as there is no giant mountain at the antipodes of Jerusalem.

(I just took a moment to double-check that, using an antipodes map.)

For those people who insist that the truth of evolution somehow disproves their version of God…well, their version of God is disproven. More rational people can accept both God and evolution.

Another argument is based on a kind of induction. I don’t believe in Kretosa, the God of Judges…because I just made him up. I don’t believe in Elbereth, the Queen of the Stars, because J.R.R. Tolkien made her up, some fifty years ago or so. I don’t believe in some of the stories told about Odin, because Snorri Sturluson made them up 800 years ago. I don’t believe some of the stories about Zeus and Apollo because Ovid, Homer, Hesiod, and others, made them up over a long period of literary creativity. And, thus, the same for what Mohammed wrote, and for the JE, P, and D texts of the early Bible. They were made up by people. Kretosa and Elbereth have every bit as much evidentiary support.

However…this kind of induction isn’t quite the same as “proof” in the regular mathematical sense. I can’t show any specific “chain” that links disbelief in one God to disbelief in the next. (No “N > N+1” step, as in formal mathematical induction.)

I once met a college physics professor who didn’t believe in anything he hadn’t seen with his own eyes! Yes, literally! He didn’t believe in atoms…or New Zealand!

195

What would God need for a structure such as that? At least ETs are more likely to make that for a reason, rather than God.

196

I can’t believe I am going to weigh in on this but I have read the whole thing and actually followed a bunch of the links, so here we go…

1.There will absolutely be a cosmic alignment of some sort on Dec 21 2012, and it will be a huge deal, Major event not a doubt in my mind.( that is if we are correct on syncing )

  1. The Maya were amazing astronomers and brilliant calendar makers. They understood things that we are only recently able to understand and their understanding of the scale of time was way beyond what was contemporary.

This is super huge if you are an Ancient Maya(AM), has about zero meaning for the rest of us, except the chance for a little humility on the modern worlds part, more on that in a sec.

Alignment. Yep it is going to happen but unless you are AM astronomer you probably don’t know what to look for, modern example, the debate as to beginning of Ramadan.

Big Deal. Are you kidding me, hell yeah, we are starting a new Batun(sp?). “We are going to out party 1999, come on that was a millennium, this is a whole calendar reset” but only if you are an AM

Amazing. Not really and absolutely, Calendars serve several important functions, a few being; basic time keeping, agriculture and culture. Almost all terrestrial calendars use the same basic unit the Year appx 365 days, so almost every calendar is easily synced, some math might be needed. Agriculture requires us to subdivide our year so we know when to plant, there are some convenient markers that are easily measured without complex instruments, although writing helps, the moon cycle and equinoxes. You now have the tools to use a correctable calendar, you can begin with a small circle of stones and a stick and refine from there, in a few generations you end up with something far more complex, through observation, and this is where culture plays a huge part. A calendar tells you when to pray, what to eat, when to worship, who to worship, when to work, when to sit idle, when/what to remember, when to give etc. besides all the agricultural timing. Something in AM culture made it important to think in the long scale/long cycle so their culture evolved the Long Count Calendar. I have no idea what would make anyone think on a scale of 52,000 times their lifespan, but obviously they did, how many lifetimes did that take? Kudos to the AM for their awesome math and observational skills, but does this matter to us, not a bit. A big calendar event aligning with an equinox, it would be weird if it did not. Think about it or convert 12.21.2012 into an Islamic of Jewish calendar and go into a number frenzy over that, because the year date is irrelevant. In fact it is rather arbitrary, virtually no one believes JC was born 12.25.0000 and no one cares because where you start is completely unimportant, it is just a reference point.

Humility. Us moderns IMO have a tendency to think we are smarter than the ancients were, that because they knew less than we do they were not as smart, this is just flat out wrong. Modern Humans have been just about the same for at least 100,000 years(general consensus everyone?), same people same motivations and desires(generally). They also lived in a modern developing world, albeit more slowly. Oh lets have an example, go down to your local Home improvement center, go to the tool section, look for the measurement devices, pick up a water level, oogle that amazing piece of technology, invented at least 5000 years ago, probably used it while building the Pyramids of Egypt, in all that time all we have done to improve that tool is better materials and a digital readout, same friggin tool.
More Humility. Ancients built the same way we do now, it was just harder and took longer, they planned for this. Look at the castles and churches of Europe, some of them took hundreds of years to build, the guys who drew up the original plans knew their great grand children would still be working on it, oh BTW, does anybody know who built the Empire State Building(no google fu), but everyone knows The great Pyramid of Cheops, yep the people who do the work rarely get the credit. Some things never change. If there was a plaque with the builders name on it, it was in small type.

Just a little more of this…
Scene)
Puma Punku, our jewel in the green desert, transition stage between 2nd and 3rd construction stages, in the market place, early evening

(Enter Bob)

Narrator: “Bob is in trouble, the Temple walls are separating and the King is displeased, Bob’s great great grandfather learned how to make the flat exact stones of the first Temple and his family has been the builder for the king ever since, to keep his head and his childrens jobs, he needs a solution in 5 or 10 years. He paces the marketplace to clear his mind.”

(Enter Jim) A jeweler

(J)“Bob come here I want to show you something in my shop”

(B)“Sure Jim I need the distraction, I have had a bad day”

(J)“More trouble with the wife? I have something for that.”

(B)“Not that, she doesn’t know about the GF yet, what did you want to show me?”

(J)" You know the shiny jewelry I make out of the rocks around here, by melting, well I wanted to make some more complex shapes but the Metal, that is what I am calling it now by the way, wasn’t stiff enough to keep its shape so I found a different rock that that made metal too, but it was an ugly color and brittle. So I mixed them and check this out"

Jim displays a small T shaped piece, silver/copper colored and hands it to Bob

(J) “I made the shape in the wet sand and poured the metal in, awesome eh’, try to hurt it, you can’t break it”

(B) “Wait you poured it into a hole that was T shaped? Why cant I bend this, it is the size of a small twig, is this magic?”

(J) " Please don’t accuse me of sorcery, I have enough problems, with the wife dead and the boys in the army, and the unmarriable daughter at home, oy vey, I hope to make enough from this Metal to buy her a dowry and marry that wretched girl off"

(B)(DING) “Er Jim you know, eh you think you can make shapes inside stone? Because this kinda looks like the shape of the wood blocks my Grandfather used to hold the original Temple blocks together, you remember I told you about watering against rot as my first Temple job”

(J) “Yes I can make them in stone, I tried it out on those bad blocks you gave me from the cutters shop, I was just about to show you, funny thing I have to break the stone to get them out”

Lights fade

The End

I know that is completely hypothetical, but problems are made to be solved, if you still need proof, while you are in the tool aisle… Look at the hatchets and axes

We have never needed the intervention of the gods/aliens/angels etc, we have used what mankind has always done when something needs to get done, ingenuity and hard work. Don’t make it complicated

CAPT

197

Let’s take this one thing at a time.

There is a cosmic alignment “of some sort” EVERY DAY. If you have any particular alignment in mind, now is the time to reveal it, whatever it is. And please tell us what this “alignment” will do and what makes it “major”. Then I can mark it on my calendar and send you a snicker the day after.

198

Dang! I just realised my north fence post aligned with the Horsehead Nebula a few hours ago. And I missed it. :smack:

The cats been acting weird ever since.

199

My big worry is when the galactic alignment of the black hole does not line up with the galactic toilet.

200

Are you claiming that the Puma Punku site could not be reproduced with modern technology? Not the technology at the time, but modern-day technology? That was my question - you claimed “certain ancient structures … that we don’t know how to replicate the stuff with our modern technology”, and I’d like to know what structures you were referring to.