say “The phrase men-are-rapists is bigoted, inflamatory, and unfair to a large number of decent men.”
I’m well aware they’re not the same thing. But refusing to condemn (or supporting) the attitude that ‘men are rapists’ is bigoted. Now, I’m more than willing to admit that I read your post wrong, but, clear up my ignorance. say
“The phrase men-are-rapists is bigoted, inflamatory, and unfair to a large number of decent men.”
I am just commenting on the meme “men are rapists”. I don’t disagree with the facts you’re citing, but you have to realize that ‘men are rapists’ is the same class of phrase as ‘women are crack whores’.
You wouldn’t like it if someone said that about women, and with good cause. Right? Women are crack whores. Totally cool? Women are sluts. Totally cool? Women are baby murdering electra-complex-inducing monsters." Totally cool?
Please join me in saying that being bigoted against men is just as bad as being bigoted against women.
Again, if I’ve misread let me know. But your responses to the fact that the men-are-rapists meme is bigoted are to cite that most rapes are commited by men. You can understand my confusion as to your real position I’m sure?
Sorta reminds me of something Indira Ghandi said in response to calls for Indian women in one of the major cities, in which there was a series of violent sexual assaults on random women after dark, to undergo curfew in order to be at less risk of being raped. She said something to the effect that it should be the men of the city that should be under a curfew; they’re the ones doing the raping, why should women automatically have their lives restricted?
No, I don’t understand your confusion. Because I have never fucking said “all men are rapists.” Nor will I, because yes, it is sexist on top of being flat out wrong. And yes, sexism works both ways.
Yes. You misread what I said.
I realize this is a very inflammatory topic, for both sexes and for lots of different reasons. But please believe that I am just as interested as you in dispelling the bullshit (on all sides) of the rape issue.
Okay, you perhaps might want to rethink what you type… because to someone, like me, your response to catsix might indicate that you didn’t have any problem with the men are rapists meme. Just how it looked to me, do with that what you will.
Some men ARE rapists. Some women ARE crack whores. Those things are both facts. How is stating these things meant to be “bigoted”? How is this confusing? I think you’re looking for some big controversy that just isn’t there. Seriously.
I think a lot of us men feel in the firing line when rape is discussed. We know that the vast majority of rapists are men, and we are men too. And however much a man believes that he would never commit a rape, he has this feeling at the back of his mind that women (or some women) think he’s essentially no different from other men, i.e. capable of rape.
Just a form of insecurity, maybe, that makes some of us lash out at times.
Welcome to the Dope. (where reading comprehension counts)
Stating those facts isn’t bigoted, nor have I claimed that it is. Using those facts to say “Men are rapists” “Women are crack whores” is bigoted. Those phrases make groups fungible, and are false-to-facts.
Thanks. Care to point out my reading comprehension problems? Or are you just going to work on your own, mmm?
Maureen never "used those facts to say “Men are rapists…” etc. etc. She just said that most rapists are men. Do you see the difference? If you don’t, well, what can I say.
Good, I didn’t want to go to bed til we got that straightened out.
Sally, apparently the way I worded my sentence led Finn to believe I was making the blanket statement that all men are rapists. Such is not the case, but I don’t like being grouped into a generalization, either, so I don’t take too much offense at his insistence that I explain myself.
Rick, I’m not sure if you saw my post earlier about men who have never and will never raped, but I think you just went a long way toward explaining it. Thank you. And with that; good night.
If someone says “the phrase men are rapists is bigoted.” and someone else’s direct response to that is “men commit rape.” that doesn’t sound like a strong denunciationl, now does it?
Besides, Maureen and I are talking to each other like nice adults, why don’t you stop bothering the grown ups?
Fuck, I did it again.
Rick, I’m not sure if you saw my post earlier about why men who have never and will never rape seem to feel that they are being accused when they are not, but I think you just went a long way toward explaining it.
Okay. Now I really AM going to bed. For a change, I don’t have insomnia.
I must plead guilty - I read the first few posts, a few scattered posts about the place of sex in rape and most of the posts on this page, but not the lot.
There’s a difference between these two statements:
The majority of rapists are male.
Men are rapists.
If you can’t see that, your bigotry is apparently more severe than I originally thought.
Except that you presuppose conclusions, you and other feminists will use nearly any tactic including smearing half the population with a disgusting label, and insist that men be indoctrinated to your way of thinking from a very young age. This includes the massive effort made to get people to blindly believe your statistics without investigating the research methods from which they were created. Statements to the effect of ‘Just a wild assed guess here, but the numbers could be four times higher than we could even create with our survey.’ aren’t science and only make the rest of your so-called research look more bogus.
I’ve read the feminist tripe, ya dipshit. My eyes have seen enough Koss, Brownmiller, et al, to show me that these people are not interested in honest scholarship. They are interested in prepetual victimhood and will guard it fiercely because to have women believe they are not victims would be the end of their purpose in life.
I don’t need cites of my own to know when someone’s research methodology was flawed. I can actually tell if a survey is misleading or is slanted to create a particular response. And I know when a sample size was too small, or just not representative of the population as a whole, as it’s been in many feminist ‘studies.’
I’m the head of my department, but nice try on the T.A. quip. I’m telling you that I see these feminist proclamations as flawed. I’m not out to prove a set of numbers. I have no interest in proving a set of numbers. What I do have an interest in is the misandrist attitude of society today and the lies put forth by ‘women’s studies’ departments and feminist organizations.
Those sentences look a hell of a lot different without the word ‘some’ in them. A fact that feminists don’t seem to care about when they state ‘Men are rapists.’ Note the awful lack of any specification that they don’t mean men, in general, as a gender, all of them.
I don’t honestly know of one. I have to look at them and find out how they did their research to tell for sure what their bias is.
Perhaps this explains why she confuses claiming that rape avoidance is propounded more prevalently than other-crime avoidance with asking whether it is or not?
Maureen, maybe I can explain it in a different way. You’re a smart and wise lady, so I know that you can understand this.
Sally went to a frat party, and thus became a victim of rape. Let’s assume that’s a fact. If she’d stayed home that night, she never would have been a victim of that unfortunate act. Now, if I phrase it as “Sally should never have gone to that party. She could have protected herself from rape, and yet she chose not to”, I’m still stating a fact, but I phrased it in a way that could easily be interpreted as inflamatory, casting blame, and ill-timed.
Would you agree with that? Might I have exercised more tact and phrased it in a non-offensive way? Yes.
When you say “Men are rapists”, you are also stating a fact. No one disputes the truth of your statement. However, the way it is phrased has inflamed, cast blame, and was ill-timed. All we are asking is for it to be phrased in a less offensive way. “X are Y”, because of the structure of our language, implies that there is a 1 to 1 relationship between X and Y. In fact, Y is a small subset of X. Y < X.
Had Chotii proclaimed “Some men are rapists”, or “Most rapists are men”, or even “A small but significant number of men are rapists”, then we could have saved ourselves 2 pages of grief. It was the deliberately inflamatory and provocative way she said it, and the unwillingness of many people to try to understand the difference between provocative and coldy factual statements that have contributed in large part to the bad feelings in this thread. (And to some extent, in the other thread as well.)
In addition, her ridiculous theory that men are uncomfortable with an accusation of rape being due to guilt over something that never happened just added insult to injury.
If this makes sense, then good. If not, blame it on the fact that I’ve spent the last 16 hours swallowing painkillers and blood.
I said that I have to look at a study to determine what bias it has. If it’s created by a human being, it has bias. I did not say that I believe every study has feminist bias before looking at it.
That’s why I’d have to look at it. To see if it has a feminist bias.
I’m not confused. People have asked why rape avoidance is ‘propounded more prevalently’, not if it is. There is a difference between the two questions. The first was asked in this thread, the second was not.
How does the second half of that sentence necessarily follow the first half? I think your use of the word ‘thus’ is misplaced because it presupposes that the sole reason Sally was raped was that she went to a frat party, or that one expects a woman at a frat party will be raped.
It would be far less inflammatory and you could eliminate the logical fallacy if you phrase this as ‘Sally went to a frat party and at some time during that party, she was raped.’
Right, it’s the difference between saying ‘Some women are child abusers.’ and using the fact that the vast majority of child abuse and neglect happens at the hands of the mother to say ‘Women are child abusers.’ The addition of the word ‘some’, or even being more careful and saying ‘A small minority of women are child abusers, while the majority of child abuse is committed by this group.’
‘A small minority of men are rapists, while the majority of rape is committed by this group.’ It’s much less inflammatory that way.
I agree here also. It’s very insulting to tell someone that they are upset about being categorized with very nasty and criminal individuals purely because of their gender or their race. It’s even worse when you’re told that your upset feelings are caused by guilt, especially when you know that you are not one of those criminals.
This is something that many feminists have done, though. They’ve claimed that men feel guilt over rape, even when they are themselves not rapists, or have even gone so far as to say that they feel guilt because they benefit from a ‘culture of rape’ although they themselves may have never raped anyone, nor did they take part in any ‘culture of rape.’
It’s kind of like saying ‘White people are racist.’ and then when a white person gets upset about that, telling them they’re upset because they feel guilty. To make matters worse, there are those who even say that the guilt comes from participating in a ‘culture of racism’ and taking benefit from that culture, despite any work they’ve ever done to counter racism.
Something feminists have argued for years and years is that it’s insulting to be pigeonholed because of your gender. This is what they wish society to stop doing to them. In return, it would be nice if feminists could do the same for men.
Thank you, catsix for my first laugh of the morning. I think I could say the same for you–that you think that “progress” will only come when we share your ideology. And what would that be? Calling people with opposing POV’s names? Splattering invective all over–what a mess! Yes, it’s the Pit, but surely you are an adult and can speak your truth w/o foaming at the mouth?
You are so blinded my your own rage (unless you use phrases such as I quoted previously in everday conversation), that you didn’t even notice my point.
I don’t care if you agree with the research findings/assumptions/facts/conclusions on any subject, even this one. You are entitled to your opinion, a grace you are unwilling to extend to other’s here.
I was amazed at the vitriol, anger and invective–such intensity usually only comes from great pain. I hope you are addressing this in RL.
You persuasive technique could use a bit of fine tuning. I am not sure what false idol you desire to knock down here-women’s fears of rape or feminist theory in general, but the most frequent posters in this thread have repeated time and again that they do not believe the all men are rapists. There are probably women out there who do believe this whole-heartedly. Is it bigotry? No, it’s prejudiced and sexist–hardly a realm unknown to either sex.
The American Association of Forensic Scientists is a bigoted, “feminazi” organization? Who knew? But if catsix says it is so, it must be true–afterall, we have all her anger at sociological research techniques and studies that don’t enter into her school of thought to prove it! The AAFS! I’ll have to tell my Dad(OB/Neonatal pathologist, member of AAFS and also a midwife). He’ll be so excited!
And lastly, because I found this so funny–I don’t need to know your radio listening habits. “Feminazi” is a Limbaugh phrase–as ignorant and bigoted as he is. Your use of it colors your entire “argument” for me and drives home the point that all the while you are pointing fingers and crying, “Misandrist! Misandrist!”–you are denigrating this topic and the women who are discussing it, in misogynistic terms.
Pot and kettle, indeed. Ah, the irony!
Why should we listen to an angry, bigoted rant(s) from you?
On preview: catsix says:
"Except that you presuppose conclusions, you and other feminists will use nearly any tactic including smearing half the population with a disgusting label, and insist that men be indoctrinated to your way of thinking from a very young age.
I don’t need cites of my own to know when someone’s research methodology was flawed. I can actually tell if a survey is misleading or is slanted to create a particular response. And I know when a sample size was too small, or just not representative of the population as a whole, as it’s been in many feminist 'studies."
Well, guess what? I am very glad I am not in your department–and what would that be? You have made any number of sweeping statements above–I would like to see some of those cites that you say you don’t need. You get to be judge and jury while slinging verbal abuse–say, now there’s uni level teaching for ya! Most impressive. I hope you get tenure.
I am off to start the “indoctrination of my sons to my way of thinking at a very young age” now. I dunno, the older one is 13; I may already be too late!
Just one last note-you have already shown thru your posts how little you value dialogue here. The most valuable contribution you have made (and I had to wade thru the crap to get to it) was that many “feminist” studies have flaws.
I can see your point–research studies are carefully planned and subjected to rigorous discipline in order to weed out bias etc. I have no trouble accepting that some studies are flawed, even many–but many is NOT all.
But I have trouble giving you any credence at all–you, yourself, are incredibly biased.
to the guys here–tdn , Finn , etc–I want to thank you for sticking with this. This is a difficult convo for all concerned. Just for the reccord, I do not consider all men rapists or potential rapists. Just wanted to clear that up.
I speak the way I speak. I don’t ‘foam at the mouth’, and any belief that I do is your perception of a reality that doesn’t exist.
Actually I do use such phrases in every day conversation. It’s the way I talk. Rage has nothing to do with it, nor does blindness. I noticed what you said, I don’t agree with it.
Pain? Huh?
Then they need to stop using the sentence ‘Men are rapists.’ If, after all, it falsely conveys a belief they don’t have, why use it?
Yes, it is bigotry to steadfastly cling to a sexist belief.
See? Sexism counts as bigotry because one who is sexist is a bigot.
So accusing me of being a misogynist is fine because I disagree with feminist misinformation and the pervasiveness of it, and because I have called the classification of men as people who either are rapists of feeling guilt that they might be a rapist as ‘misandrist’?
That’s funny. I don’t usually laugh before noon, but I am now.
You brought up my radio listening habits. You were wrong. Can you admit that?
Information technology. I’m a computer engineer. I deal in science, not in feelings.
It depends on the dialogue. If it’s just going to be more reptition of the false claims made daily in feminist organizations and women’s studies classes (such as the ‘Super Bowl Sunday’ myth), then no, I don’t value it.
My study of law and feminism gave me the bias I have against feminism and feminists. I’m still waiting to be proven wrong.
I’ve found that a woman who vehemently disagrees with feminist theory is often treated far worse by those who are feminists than men who disagree with it. This appears to be yet another case in point of that theory.
