I hope I can shed some light on this. When you say “Men rape women”, while you meant to imply “Some”, many people will read it as “All.” With no qualifier, that’s the logical interpretation. Couple that with the extreme accusation inherent within, then it’s no surprise that most men’s reaction would be an almost knee-jerk “No I don’t, I swear!”
Would you have any problem with the phrase “Women are prostitutes”?
Well, statutory rape is a difficult one, and is based on when the state believes a woman is mature enough to make her own decisions regarding sexuality vs. being coerced and taken advantage of. I happen to think it’s a case by case thing, YMMV.
And that, to me, is it in a nutshell.
Instead, should probably read: “The vast majority of rapes are committed by men against women.”
No, you didn’t understand my question. The OP was decrying those here on SDMB who claim that women are responsible for being raped. I’m asking for examples of anyone actually saying that women are responsible for being raped. Has anyone MADE such a contention, or is it just a strawman? The example you just quoted is actually making the opposite point, i.e. women are not responsible for being raped.
That’s what you’re saying, but I still don’t see any examples of people who actually believe that.
Now I’m really confused. Are you agreeing with that position now?
I suspect we are in complete agreement on most things regarding this. It’s petty little things like language that are getting in the way. 
No. The difference is that in the end, the mugger wanted the victim’s money and injury was probably incidental; to the rapist, the violation of the victim is the purpose.
tdn, the only disconnect you and I seem to be having is the word “sex”. In the prisoner… thread, I was guilty of simplifying this to rape is violence. Instead, I should have said that rape is about force.
My own preference is to have people quit referring to rape as a sex act. The only one have “sex” in a rape is possibly the rapist. The other party is not participating in a sex act. As Try as I Might indicated in the prisoner… thread, a lot perception of the act is in how the act is described. “He raped her” vs “they had non-consentual sex”. We need to keep the active voice on the rapist. “He forced her to perform sex” is not strong enough–it must be “he raped her”.
I know you don’t feel that responsibility is being placed on the victim. However, when people ask first what the circumstances are surrounding the rape and letting the victim know all the ways she could have prevented it, it seems a lot like asking her to take responsibility–even if that’s not what you mean.
I think this is because it must make men question themselves: “Could I do that? How would I justify it to myself?” I have a pretty good idea that many men who do rape, especially date rape, find some way to justify itself to themselves. They would not call themselves rapists. So the question is not: would I grab some woman in a dark parking lot and force myself on her, but…could I insist that my girlfriend have sex with me even when she didn’t want to? How about if I were drunk, or she were? What if it was just too hard to stop, if we’d gone too far? Could I really make myself stop "
And the answer, unfortunately, is that a great many men, even men who believe they would never do such things…do in fact do so. And of course it creates guilt by association, even among those men who truly never would do such things. Because if that man there…could do it, and justify it to himself somehow…how is it I would not?
Well, this is how I think such guilt comes about.
Sorry.
To the best of my recollection, no one made such a contention, but many people interpreted it as such. Not a strawman, but a misunderstanding. I blame John Q. English, inventor of languages.
I thought the post I pointed out said that, but I could be wrong. When I have time, which is not now, I’ll see if I can dig up a better one.
No no no no! I’m pointing out that some people buy into that position. I do not count myself among them.
Nope. Burqas don’t work, at least not completely. Women stay pretty-well covered here in Saudi but rapes still happen. OTOH, there is no such beast as a *serial * rapist. Men caught for rape usually expeience an ugly death within the year.
Not trying to start a DP debate as it is one of those “religious” subjects where people are going to see what they want to. Chopping the heads off rapists and the extremely low incidence of rape may be cause-and-effect or just a correlation but there are damn few rapes here.
Regards
Testy
I didn’t figure it needed to be said that not all women are raped.
Furthermore, I’ve not seen anybody suggest that women should be ‘restricted’ by anything approaching law, only that they should be aware of risk factors and perhaps modify their behavior. As such, since any restriction is a personal coice as to how you want to balance safety and freedom of action… ~shrugs~ it’s your choice, and as of yet I’ve seen no one suggest otherwise (despite the hysterics of a few posters in this thread).
I would argue that one is much more preventable than the other, and thus, it’s not all that surprising that more time is spent focusing on that which we can actually change. YMMV.
Nitpick: it wasn’t about not working at night, or even taking a bus. It was going to a particular area that would have me standing alone at bus stops on the North Side late at night, and then having to walk back to my home in the dark, when a rapist had recently been caught targeting women RIGHT ON MY BUS LINE. Right by my house.
I have no problem going out at night, or taking the bus, but there are certain areas that I would avoid being alone at.
I’m not complaining, just clearing this up, lest people thing I would never leave my house at night. That’s not true.
Because it’s an unfair generalization that does not apply to the vast majority of men on this planet.
The majority of people who abuse their own children are mothers, so would it be fair to say ‘Mothers abuse children.’ or
‘Women abuse children.’? Of course not. The same way it’s not fair to say ‘Men rape women.’
It maligns the vast majority of people of that gender that aren’t criminals.
Do you think it’s OK to apply that perception to all men because of what one did?
I’ve read it enough to know that it contains far too much feminist dogmatic bullshit to be of any use to me.
Where did I say it’s less bad than being beaten, stabbed or shot? I only said it wasn’t worse. As a matter of fact, having been the target of both kinds of crimes, I’d say they were pretty fucking equal.
They don’t reach a sexual climax from it? It doesn’t ‘get them off’?
Yeah? Most men (and women) with other sexual outlets still masturbate. Having sex with someone willingly doesn’t mean they feel no sexual release at all from masturbation. Do rapists not get any sexual pleasure from rape? You’re going to have to prove that. Especially since it’s well documented that there are people for whom violence toward another person and/or humiliation of another person is a sexual desire. There are websites, magazines, videos and clubs devoted to it.
It’s not reasonable or right to categorize all men because of the actions of one. Why do they feel guilty and demonized? Well how the hell would you feel if organizations with a few million members continually pushed the message at you ‘Women abuse children’? Would you eventually feel you were being unfairly demonized? I would.
But what does he get out of the violence? An orgasm?
Is that what you’d ask yourself if you were bombarded day in and day out with the message ‘Women abuse children.’?
How many is a ‘great many’? I’m under the impression that it’s actually a very extreme minority of the male population of earth.
Sorry, I was shortening things down from memory. I only brought it up to make the point that it’s not unreasonable to evaluate the risk of a certain situation and then decide it’s worth it to modify your behavior to avoid that risk,
Yep, and we (all) spent page after page arguing because we failed to clear up the various definitions of that word. Our bad.
Excellent way of putting it.
Yes, although I’d point out that Try was referring to a courtroom situation, in which jury reaction is everything. On a message board we can take our time and explore the situation with a bit more nuance.
Well put. blowero, you get that? I hope that answers your question. It’s far better than anything I could write.
Probably because of all the people who say things like “Men rape women.” I dunno about you, but that makes me feel pretty damn demonized.
And you think that because you’re a bigot. Jesus christ, how insulting can you be? Having folks bandy about insulting and idiotic distinction memes somehow makes me question if I ‘could’ rape a woman and then justify it? Are you out of your mind??? Don’t tacitly accuse an innocent man of rape (“Men are rapists”) and then, when they feel demonized, point to that as evidence of them being potential rapists. That’s revolting.
Um… So because a rapist would find a way to justify it, your normal, average, law abiding, man is going to wonder if he could? Again, just how insulting and bigoted can you get?
Oh my fucking god!
Unless a man is a fucking criminal monster these thoughts don’t enter into his head! “Could I really make myself stop???” Normal men without serious pathologies know full well that they could ‘make’ themselves stop. That’s what being an adult and having self control means.
A great many? Bullshit.
Also, just because some wackos think they could never rape anybody (which you’ve not proven) and then go on to rape someone, doesn’t mean that all or most or even some men fit into this pattern too. If a man doesn’t think he could do such a thing, but then does such a thing, he’s a freakin rapist! And thus, very, very diseased.
No, folks like you try to create guilt by association, and then some men like myself object to feeling demonized and point this out. But I guess I’m really sitting here thinking about the circumstances in which I’d rape a woman. You know best.
Of course not. Do you think you could step down the frothing anger just a few notches and try a bit more dispassion?
Translation: No. You didn’t actually hit any of the cites mentioned. Tell ya what. Do that. Then come back and we’ll talk.
Good. Then on this count we agree.
According to the research, not always, no. But whether or not they reach climax, as I pointed out in the other thread, is of no consequence. Many women experience climax during rape, as well. Does that mean those women are enjoying the experience?
I’m sorry. Are you really comparing rape as a sexual outlet to masturbation? My word, you really are deluded. No. In answer to your question, and for the third time, many rapists state they do not enjoy the act of intercourse itself. Proof of that was provided. The satisfaction of the rapist was the “conquering” of the victim. And yes, of course I’ve heard of rape fantasy. The two are nothing alike.
Noooooo…that’s why I said it was unreasonable. However. Many women do not lump men into the category “rapist.” I would say that a man’s feeling of guilt is more a case of transferrence, not only on the part of a victim, but on the part of most men.
So. You think orgasm=sex. Okay. Once again, bullshit. An orgasm is a phyiscal response to stimulus. And women who experience them during rape have their shame and degradation increased because of that, because no one bothers to explain to them the difference between enjoyment and orgasm.
I think that’s a good guess, but not quite right, at least not in my case. My own thoughts are usually “Hey, what if I’m ever falsely accused of this? Or what if a sexual encounter becomes, in her mind, a rape, when I thought it was a mutually enjoyable thing?”
This shows a couple of things:
If you honestly think it’s just denial on your part, and you might rape someone some day, get into counseling asap.
Otherwise, assume that this is a ridiculous scare tactic designed to demonize half of the species and realize that you’re not a rapist.
~shrugs~
I don’t think so. I can’t remember which of those articles it was, but one of them states that rapists (serial & date) generally commit their (first) act of rape by the age of 22.
Oh, I see what you’re saying. That’s what I thought as well. If anyone says women are responsible for being raped, I’d be the first to vehemently disagree. I’m just not aware of anyone here having actually said such a thing. I think it’s a strawman.
Maybe the rapist reaches orgasm. I believe you are aware that women sometime orgasm during rapes as a response to friction. How about the rapist? Does he ejaculate because of the friction? If you are talking about some kind of mental release, that can happen with or without any sexual aspect. I believe the rapist gets more from the process of the rape than the actual sexual activity. You obviously disagree.