I don’t honestly think it, the thought just passed through my head on its way out to lunch. My honest assessment is that in all my 43 years I have not raped anyone, and as I age, the chances of me doing so diminish. I think I’m a safe bet.
And I’m not going to flame Chotii as you did, but I agree she was dead wrong in her assessment.
Yes, it does answer my question. The answer would appear to be “no”. Nobody has stated that the woman is responsible. That’s just a misinterpretation. There’s a difference between prudent advice and blame.
No prob, didn’t ask anybody else to flame anybody.
Just that bullshit like that makes me see red. To me, the idea that normal, decent law abiding men have to question themselves, because, who knows, they might just be rapists! Well… that’s very insulting and bigoted from where I sit.
I object to an innacurate and hurtful meme (Men rape women), and since that makes me feel demonized and guilty-by-association, that means I might just be a rapist? Pah leeeeeeeeeze.
Yep.
Although I should point out that there are some people who do think it’s the woman’s fault. But none of those people are on this board.
OK, one is, and he got answered with an 8-page Pitting.
Mmm. I think the percentage of men who do…must be fairly high, because…what is it? 1 out of every 4 or 5 women will be sexually assaulted in their lives? Somebody is doing it.
Maybe it really is a matter of perception. Maybe the woman perceives herself as having been assaulted, and the man does not perceive himself as committing an assault. Nevertheless, it cannot be a ‘tiny percentage’ of men who are doing this to 1 out of every 4 or 5 women out there. Unless of course there are a tiny number of men who are going around serially assaulting a whole heck of a lot of women.
I’m not a bigot. I’m looking at the numbers.
As for the question framed differently: ‘Women abuse children’ or ‘mothers abuse children’. I know perfectly well I’m not above just losing it and abusing (punishing excessively, I mean) my children. Why? Because the thoughts come sometimes. Thank god, I’ve never acted on them, but I won’t pretend I haven’t had to really exert some self-control sometimes when an offense is particularly egregious. I’m no saint, no angel in mother’s clothing. I also know that if I ever gave myself permission to do it once, it would be easier to give myself permission a second time. And yes, sometimes it scares me. But so far, I have managed to keep adult self-control. I intend always to do so. But every time I see something on the news about some mother who kills her children in some horrible way, I end up asking myself, how could she do that? Could I? Would I even know if I were on that slippery slope? Would anyone else know, to intervene?
I may be cynical and even bitter, but I see no reason to believe that if SHE could do it, I am so morally superior that it could never happen to me. All I can do is my best to monitor myself and make conscious choices every single time: such as, ‘the kid may have dropped her baby sister on her head, but she gets one swat/a long time out/a big lecture, and not dropped on her head so she can see how it feels.’
As a slight hijack, but then again maybe it’s not: 20 or so years ago, I was involved with Operation Rescue, which at that time had non-violent intervention as its philosophy. I knew Shelly Shannon, who was a professed follower of this philosophy. But you know what she did? She changed. Her opinion changed. And one day she flew to Kansas City and shot 3rd-trimester-abortion-provider George Diller (he lived). So I wrote to the folks I’d worked with at the Life Advocate magazine, who came out with an editorial in defense of her action, and said hey! This is the complete opposite of what you used to profess! And they said “We always knew it would come to this. We just didn’t want to say so.” Time needed to go from non-violence to gun-wielding? 4 years. So I know people can change. The question is, why do they change? How do they change?
I’m telling you, if they can do it, any of us could. All it takes is the right circumstances, bad luck, a lack of self-awareness, and maybe falling in with the wrong crowd.
If this makes me a bigot, so be it. I think I’m realistic. It’s unfortunate that this is the reality I see.
I don’t think it was this board, but another I frequent, where someone linked to the questionairre one of those rape surveys used. I believe that one found 1 in 9 women had been raped.
The whole survey was pointless except for the final question.
“Do you believe you’ve ever had sex against your will?”
That is of course subjective and a piss poor aurvey and shouldn’t be used as hard facts. Yet it constantly is. That’s crap.
Also, someone upthread mentioned that another of these surveys counted that a woman had been raped if she had ever had sex while intoxicated. That’s an even worse survey trick.
And people wonder why some people don’t buy these stupid numbers.
In such cases, I don’t believe “looking at the numbers” is necessarily productive. As an analogy, would I be justified at looking at incarceration rates for black people and making pronouncements about them? Would it be productive to try to draw conclusions from the fact that women score lower than men, on average, on I.Q. tests? No, far from being a defense against bigotry, statistics sometimes help foster bigotry. We are all individuals, and statistics don’t say anything about the individual. Just because a man committed a rape, doesn’t mean all men are rapists.
I have nothing but contempt for bigots like those who spout feminazi bullshit like “Men are rapists.”
And no, I’m not sorry that bothers you.
The only thing I have to say is ‘Fuck you and your feminazi misandrist sisters with your bigoted, sexist, narrowminded beliefs.’
As far as I’m concerned, you and the rest of them can go to hell.
Is that their goal? Look, rapists do what they do because it gets them off. It gratifies them. That’s the ‘reward’ to them in the way that money is the ‘reward’ to a mugger.
The kind of satisfaction they get is sexual you fucking moron.
On the part of most men? What the fuck kind of Andrea Dworkin bullshit is that? They don’t feel guilty, idiot. They feel insulted that you would so blithely accuse them of guilt by association by making a statement so stupid as ‘Men are rapists.’
I guess you don’t enjoy orgasms that you set out to have? That’s what rapists do. They’re trying to get their rocks off on a violent act against a non-consenting person. If there wasn’t a gratification in it, they’d do something else.
Then why specifically rape? They’ve gotta be choosing that over other kinds of violence and humiliation for a reason, don’t you think?
Still using fairy tale numbers from Koss and Brownmiller? No wonder you can’t wrap your head around the fact that the vast, vast majority of men are not rapists and that you’re being a sexist, bigoted asshole by saying the things you are.
You’re a bigot who’s using made up numbers by feminist hacks to justify it. That puts you at about the same level as David Duke.
It’s the paranoid, delusional world of a feminazi that you see.
Sure! Oh, now where did I put all the answers to human ills, again? It’s not here on the desk… 
I think that education is a start. And that old chestnut, family. Where do the assumptions of entitlement and power struggle etc start? The socialization w/i the family. Fathers need to have open discussions with sons, mothers with daughters and vice versa. Oh, and it might help for Dad and Mom to have talked prior to the talks. But I also think we need to live our values–I treat my children with respect, because I want them to respect others, for example. Now that Daughter is 15 and #1 son is 13–our talks are more frequent and deal with serious issues. But the day to day approach to issues is vital.
Discuss news of the day. Talk about your body, your boundaries, what constitutes violation of the same, for both sexes etc.
And then there is health class–and youth groups at church and temple. Date rape(the one that is so open to misinterp and misconstrueing) must be discussed and ways out of typical party scenarios role played, even.
But the crux is the teachings of the adult role models in the kid’s life, IMO.
Pop culture has it’s part to play, I suppose. But one of the aspects that many have alluded to, but not fully discussed is binge drinking and “partying” in college. Having done my share, I am loathe to nay say it, but honestly, it is a perfect set up for date rape/gang rape.
Sorry, don’ t have all the answers today–check back next week, when they’re sure to be in stock! (kidding)
Stalking. Hardly (and what an ill chosen word to use in a thread about rape). I was just surfing by and had just seen the article so there you are. Also I was unaware the thread was about US only.
Still I have two daughters, and would consider it extremely irresponsible to teach them assault rape was not an issue they need concern themselves about. Because such is not reality.
catsix said, The only thing I have to say is ‘Fuck you and your feminazi misandrist sisters with your bigoted, sexist, narrowminded beliefs.’
As far as I’m concerned, you and the rest of them can go to hell."
Now, there’s a reasoned, well supported argument for you.
Yep, every woman who is appalled at rape and angry at the restrictions put on her freedom has got to be misandrist and a “feminazi”.
Listen to Rush, much, do we?
:rolleyes:
Here’s the rub. My perception of the “stranger in the bushes” based on what I remember from reading about such types in the newspaper is that of a reasonably strong, healthy man somewhere between his late teens and late thirties. If I’m ever attacked by such a man, I can fight back, yell for help, and generally use anything at my disposal to help myself. When he’s caught and brought to trial, it’s highly unlikely anyone will use the way I acted toward him to say I wanted to have sex with him it’s not all that likely someone will use some of the things I’ve done to impugn my character.
If I’m raped by an acquaintance I can see it being one of two scenarios based on my own peculiar history and what I know of most acquaintance rapes. I’ll tackle past history first. If I beat up a sixty-something security guard like the one I described earlier, it looks bad and cruel. “How could a healthy young thing like you possibly bothered by a harmless old man like that?” Do you folks realize that the one man I had to tell not to touch me time and time again was an 80 or 90 year old gentleman who looked like he’d blow away if you breathed on him hard. He and I attended the same church, so I couldn’t always avoid him or stay out of reach of him, despite the number of times I told him not to touch or hug me and why. As I’ve said elsewhere, Episcopalians are pretty liberal, but beating up an 80 year old man, regardless of the circumstance will not get a 30 something year old woman any Brownie points!
If it’s an acquaintance closer to my own age who rapes me, the circumstances I can see it happening under are when I’d be hanging out with a group of friends. Now, I like dancing, flirting, and making outrageous double-, triple- and quadruple-entendres. Despite all that, I’m sexually conservative. I don’t do one-night stands. I do hug. I make my position clear when it’s called for and I’m entirely capable of telling a man off if push really comes to shove. If I’m raped, a good defense attorney could easily make hash of my behaviour making me look like a woman who doesn’t say “No” to anyone and who did want to have sex with the defendant. He may even overlook the rather important distinction that, while there might be and have been situations where I want to have sex with a particular man, I won’t do so because I don’t consider it morally right.
From what I’ve seen of the available statistics, women are at far greater risk of being raped by someone they know than by a stranger. To overlook it; to say we can’t change that or we’re at a loss how to approach that is something I find a bit unnerving.
CJ
To which bigots are you referring? It doesn’t bother me that you label people, but I’d like to see a cohesive argument. This is a very touchy subject for a lot of people, and I feel we’ve made some wonderful progress with it. Allowing it to degenerate to spitting insults would be a disservice at this point.
tsk You don’t even bother to read my cites, but you reserve the right to judge them, sight unseen? And then call ME narrow minded? I’d say that’s rather a case of pots & kettles, wouldn’t you?
Yes. It gratifies them. The nature of that gratification is what is in dispute.
That’s your opinion. I’ve provided cites that say differently. Either provide one of your own that says otherwise, or take your misinformed opinion, fold it til it’s all corners, and cram it sideways.
That I set out to have? Yes.
No. Rapists do not set out to have an orgasm. Humiliate their victims, degrade them, hurt them, yes to all. These are called facts. Cites have been provided to back them up. What you have once again provided is opinion. And not even a very well supported one, at that.
Yes, I do. This site provides many reasons. While you seem to believe it is sex driven and sex driven only, the American Academy of Forensic Sciences disagrees:
Bolding mine. Please note: “sexual gratification from victim pain and suffering,”
not from intercourse with the victim. Also note, Opportunistic rapes are listed last, and from the other thread, Try As I Might…, an attorney with extensive experience prosecuting sexual offenders states this is due to the fact that “opportunistic rapes” occur perhaps 5% of the time.
So. Now. Shall we try again? I think we can all agree the AAFS is not a “feminazi” organization. Where are your cites refuting mine? Or are you just here to shit all over people who disagree with you?
At the bottom of this page on date rape and child molestation (previously linked by someone else) it says this:
(emphasis mine)
It’s a shame I have to teach my children to be aware for the possibility that an uncle, a grandfather, a teacher…might molest them. I have to teach them not to take gifts from anyone, even our neighbors the cops, unless said people clear it with mommy and daddy first. I have to teach them to not be helpful to people, even if they might actually need help. I have to teach them to be wary of the world, because while most people in the world are nice, there are some bad people, and they don’t look bad…
In effect, I have to teach my children to view all adults as potential molesters. This is one way they can become situationally aware, and perhaps protect them. Is this bigotry? If a woman, once assaulted, views all men as potential assailants, is she guilty of bigotry?
Is this your first encounter with catsix, Maureen?
Well, no, honestly Susan, it isn’t. I am just amazed that anyone could be that full of hate and anger all the time.
Piss poor logic. Even if 1 out of 5 women are raped (others have debunked that stat) then that doesn’t imply there is a huge percentage of the male population doing it. There might very well be serial rapists. Wait until you have any data, at all, before accusing an entire half of the species, eh?
Why is this so hard to believe? If you’ve got one or maybe two serial rapists at a college campus, that might account for literally dozens of rapes, maybe hundreds. Let alone that the ‘one out of five’ statistic is bogus.
As other have pointed out, these two are not mutually exclusive. The statistics now show that young black men have a high percentage of criminals amongst them. Does this mean that somehow young black men are inherently criminals? Nope, not any more than it means men are rapists because some happen to be.
You are either obfuscating or missing the point.
Saying “Women abuse children” puts the status of child-abuser on all, or at least most women. It would be more accurate to say “some women abuse children.” And even more accurate still to say “child abusers abuse children, and some of those happen to be women.”
If you think that there’s a possibility you might do harm to your children, see a doctor, immediately.
If you don’t have enough faith in your mental state to not worry about getting on a ‘slipery slope’ and murdering your children, see a doctor, immediately.
Who mentioned morals? We’re talking pathology. Women who kill their children are very, very sick. If you have even a suspicion that you’re that sick, see a doctor immediately.
There was no change, the woman was insane, either that or the woman went insane. And having people tell you that they always knew it’d come to this implies, at least for me, that nothing changed with them. They were just waiting for someone to throw the first stone.
Nope, sorry.
Put a gun in my hand and I don’t care about the circumstances, I’m not going to go murder some innocent person, I’d rather die.
If I felt I was a danger to myself or others, it would be my responsibility as a member of society to see a doctor, immediately.
catsix hates all other women for being different from her.
What constant refrain? You have to look far and wide to find people saying what you seem to think is the norm. Maybe it’s time to re-evaluate what you think society’s attitude towards rape is.
What you seem to think is blaming the victim - don’t walk home alone at night, etc - is not particular to rape. If I was walking through the bad part of town in a three piece suit asking if anyone had change for a hundred, and I got mugged, the response I would be met with is “Of course you got mugged you silly bastard!” That doesn’t mean people wouldn’t hold the mugger accountable.
~gobsmacked~
Do you honestly not understand the difference between “Any adult you meet is potentially a rapist.” And “Adults are rapists.” ?
Do you not see the difference between “When walking late at night, I have to view everybody as a potential assailant.” and “People walking late at night are assailants.” ?