Because our culture conditions us to believe that scumbags are really sensitive, unhappy souls who can be “fixed” by the love of a good woman. And if they remain scumbags, we think maybe we didn’t love them hard enough. Occasionally, if they dump us, STILL remain scumbags and fuck over ANOTHER woman much more severely, we get a clue.
Er, not that I have any personal experience with this sort of thing…
Yep, tell me about it.
This is probably my own bitter opinion/experience/observation talking here. But I sometimes think the nice guys that talk about how they can’t find a “nice girl” really mean “I can’t find a ‘nice girl’ in a supermodel’s face and body.” I happen to think that there are plenty of nice girls out there, looking for a nice guy. But we are not supermodels, therefore we are almost invisible to a certain portion of the male polulation. And then these men who complain about how something is wrong with women out there. Well, it works both ways. (I think I basically repeated what you said, Falcon, but it was cathartic, anyway!)
AMEN!
Women always believe they can change a man. WHY???
A guy that I work with says that women get married thinking that their husband will change, and men get married & don’t want their wife to ever change. Any wonder why so many marriages fail…
Yeah, that must be it.
–
Was that sarcasm? 
Well, what is the reason, then? Do not-so-gorgeous women constantly and consistently reject nice guys? Or is it that the not-so-gorgeous women are not even registering on some of these nice guys’ “radar”? Hmmmm.
Hey, thanks, Spidey! In my case, though Ms. Right missed the boat, I am long divorced, and no longer looking for life partners, or one night stands. (I suddenly realized a few years ago that the difference between my life and celibacy was entirely a matter of choice, so I made the choice. I am much happier now.)
What my post is about is not drumming up dates for nice guys, (Although hey, it couldn’t hurt!) but finding out just what makes the men that turn my stomach so incredibly attractive to women. I know a lot of women, and they just never really have an explanation for what they were thinking, or even what glands were secreting when they decided that some stoned felon was just soooooo cute.
I know that most men will do stupid things for most any girl with a low neckline, and a push up bra. Such stupid things will often include marriage, or gifts, or just buying drinks. I understand that particular aberration of cognitive function; after all, I am male. “Oh, look, tits! Drool, drool. Try to get close to the tits. What’s that noise? Oh, she’s talking. Right, I should . . . listen? Too late! OK, nod!”
Of course, I don’t understand why a woman would want to have her tits make friends with someone in a bar. Is it a surprise that you find a lot of drunken tit men that way? It took longer than I like to admit to figure out the deal for the guy isn’t any better. She is probably more interested in my wallet than my heart, and the better she is at doing it the more involved her personality is in her own body. But that is not quite the same thing as I am asking.
Implied invitations to sexual activity in return for social attention might be sad as a lifestyle choice for the woman in question, and the man, for that matter. But at least it makes sense. It has a basic exchange of considerations desired. Socialization and or subsidy in return for sexual favors is a bankrupt basis for long term life partnership, but it does provide both sides with what they are seeking originally.
But I have watched four women in my workplace take turns getting their hearts broken, in humiliatingly public ways by the same guy. He treated every one of them like crap. He was as selfish, and exploiting as he could be. Every one of the four women, except possibly the first, had to know about the others. This is the behavior I find . . . unbelievable.
It is not credible that any one of these women thought that they would be able to have a life partnership with this slimeball. But what is even more implausible to me is that they might want to have one! Doesn’t he make your skin crawl? I don’t want to spend time with him, and he isn’t even trying to get anything from me.
The Dr. Drew answer could be part of it. But it still leaves me baffled.
Tris
You know, it just might be. It just might be a little sarcasm sliping into the edges of my speech. 
Well, if I knew what the problem was, I would have fixed it already.
I’m proably not coming off as confident enough. I can’t imagine why. Two and a half decades of listening to how horrible my female friends mates are, while being rejected myself (and thus, by implication, being worse than horrible) coudn’t have anything to do with it, I’m sure.
Well, can’t speak for all guys. They do me, though. As for why, you’d have to ask them. Maybe they’ll tell you, they won’t give me a straight answer. My personal hygene is good, and I don’t think I’m THAT ugly. They, of course, always wonder why I’m single. Though they could just be humoring me, of course. But women seem to genuinly enjoy my company, as a friend, of course. God, I’m starting to hate that word.
While I only ask out women I find attractive, the women I find attractive are often not “beautiful” in the standard sense. And my attraction’s not always physically based Intelligence, compassion, humor, and high levels of perversion all get my interest up.
I don’t see a problem with that. I’m not going to feign interest in someone I find repulsive, personality wise or physicaly, that would be deceptive and insulting. And I woudn’t want a woman who was feigning interest in me, either out of pity or because she was trying to use me. Unless she was using me sexually, of course. I could live with that, tragic as it would be.
Last woman I was signifigantly attracted to, a day or two ago, was about thirty pounds overweight, thick glasses, and frizzy hair. (To be fair, it was very humid) She also had beautiful, kissable hands and a very nice, amused sort of half-smile. Then her husband/boyfreind picked her up. Damn.
I’ve known a lot of “nice guys,” (I play RPGs and am an anime/scifi fan, for Zomel Gustav’s sake) and I’ve rarely if ever seen that behavior pattern in them. So I get a bit irritated when it comes up, because it always comes up.
It’s the female equivelent of “women stay with abusers because they like the abuse.” Both of them apply all the blame to, and assume the very worst of, the other gender.
It’s not an either/or situation. I’m sure some of them do, dispite not having seen much evidence of it. And I’m sure some “nice girls” don’t like geeks. (This, I have seen evidence of). But I suspect it’s a bit more complicated than that.
Some “nice guys” don’t have much confidence. Or are too shy to aproach many women. Or don’t meet many available women, due to thier job/social groups. Or lack the social skills to properly show thier attraction, without appering desperate. Or don’t have the experience to know they’re coming off as a dangerous stalker type. Or are just plain unatractive/unluckly. Or get so sick of rejection that they stop trying. Or some combination of the above. I would assume that “nice girls” have similar problems.
And it’s the year 2000, after all. You could try approching us once in a while, if you know a “nice guy” you like.
Is it possible that “nice girls” don’t meet up with single men often? Scanning the old hard drive, of all the women I’ve known well enough to know thier “status,” as it were, I can think of maybe three woman in the 19-40 age group who didn’t have at least occasional relationships. And two of them were special cases.
I suppose every woman I pass on the street could be a desperatly lonley “nice girl,” but picking up random women on the street dosn’t seem like a good way to find someone with similar interests, and does seem like a very good way to get beat up, arrested or maced.
Of course, every woman I pass on the street could be a werewolf, too. I’ve never met either of them in real life.
–
Sorry. Even I can’t be reasonable and understanding all the time, I guess.
I can’t decide if I want to be a scumbag or not.
…to be a half-scumbag.
Seems to work. After being a “nice guy” and dealing with being alone yet another night… I decided to try something new.
Not care.
Seems to work. Confidence is a trait I find highly attractive in women, so why shouldn’t I show the same? But you can’t approach a person of the opposite sex as if you’re lookign for someone-ANYone. You have to have a certain aloofness (is that a word?)
I saw it work for guys that I knew were @$$h@£e$, and I decided “Fine, I won’t be an @$$#o£e… I’ll be my usualy self, but I just play as though I won’t care anymore.”
And it has worked. No, I don’t have women crawling all over me as much as I’d like (you can never have enough), but I’ve also watched these women who get into these guys and I think “Yep. I definately know what I like, and I don’t want that.”
It’s true that some women are so pretty, they have no personality, because they’ve never needed it. Guys throw money and attentiona at these women for winking at them. I laugh as I step up to the other woman who looks more like she’d be genuine fun, not a payment plan or an emotional vampire.
“usualy self”?
…err, usually kind self.
Lsura:
East Atlanta, to be specific. Or if you find I’m not to your taste, I know several other nice guys as well. Atlanta has its fair share if you know who to talk to.
When I was playing the dating game, it seemed like all the nice, caring men I met were involved with or obsessing over some psycho pin-up and had no interest in a nice, intelligent woman interested in a monogamous relationship. Guess it works both ways.
Unfortunately, too many people depend on the wrong organ to make decisions.
“I have to follow my ‘heart’, not my head”: what you’re really following is situated a bit lower than that.
“You’re a nice person, but…” But you just don’t effervesce my hormones.
Fortunately I finally met up with someone where we both did what our brains said to do. Happily married for ten years now.
Your brain-in-a-marital-jar,
Myron “if it stinks it ain’t love” Van H.
XTC’s song “Snowman” has a line in it something like:
“People have a tendency to wipe their feet on anything with Welcome writen on it.”
Personally I think it is one of those almost instinctual responses, like if a predator see’s something running, it knows it must be prey. Basically the perception is that if a person is working hard to attract you, then they must have undesirable traits that they are concealing. If a person isn’t working hard to attract you, they must have hidden depths that make up for it. In general, the reality of the situation is unfortunately very different.
In my limited experience people who are either unaware of this and yet influenced by it or who use it to take advantage of such unaware people have lots of growing to do before they are ready for a stable relationship. If one is just looking to bump uglies then by all means be aware of this perceptual problem and use it. Just use a decent form of protection as well, even if it’s out of character. People not ready for stable relationships shouldn’t have kids, or STDs for that matter.
lol…is this supposed to tell me something? I’ve only been here…ummmm…almost a year.
North side of town for me, but still in the city limits.
Women like the bad boys because, “If he loves me, he’ll change for me.”
Get a fricking clue! If someone is a jerk and you are rewarding that jerk with attention, they will remain a jerk. What is it that is so bad about someone who is already a decent person?
My own sister complained to me the her husband-to-be was “boring and predictable.” Gosh, isn’t is a lot more thrilling when you can’t predict if your man is coming home to you tonight of traipsing off with some floozey. Consistencey is not boring, just reliable. If you want unreliable, you must be whacko!
I’ve watched woman after woman fall for an ex-alcoholic, uneducated, absentee father of two that fronted the band that I was in. Nothing that I could do would get the eye of these ladies. I may not be an Adonis, but I’m no gargoyle either. One woman that both of fell for had a ten year old son. He was calling me “dad”, but guess who she was infatuated with? Go figure.
Sadly, it is as if women want to be abused. “If it doesn’t hurt, it can’t be love.” If you believe that load of horse puckey, then maybe I don’t want to know you. As much as I abhor violence or abuse of any sort, it becomes more and more difficult to have any sympathy for women who hang out with scumbag losers and get the snot kicked out of them. I hate feeling this way, but when you get one date a year even though you’re looking for a wife and not a lay, it’s just hard to be sympathetic.
I will repeat what I have said in the thread that linked to this:
“There wouldn’t be such a huge supply of jerks if there wasn’t such a big demand for them.”
In my case, I didn’t find out what he was really like until I had developed feelings for him. He was always good to me. And then the proverbial other shoe dropped. I give him credit, though-- he hid his scummy side quite well.
The sad part is, had he kept on stringing me along, I would have stayed around. As it is, we don’t talk anymore. That’s probably a good thing-- who the heck wants to be played with like that?
No offense intendend to those of you to whom these applied, but… I don’t go for bad boys. I’m not one of those who felt they deserved to be treated poorly. I tried to think with my head rather than my heart or my hormones. I’ve never thought I could change anyone, nor was there anything in my childhood that made me seek his type out.
I just thought I was getting involved with a nice guy, one I had chemistry with. I got hurt anyway.
It’s not only you “nice guys” who have to deal with the existence of these jerks.
Oh, to heck with it all. I need some sleep.
Hey There! Nice Guy that gets fucked over for the scumbags checking in!
Nothing to add really… Here Homer, have a cigar.
really, there should be a loser’s club for us.
I believe that the underlying theory here is that if a young person is sufficiently traumatized by a very unstable home life, they will subconsciously attempt to recreate that scenario as adults, not necessarily because they think it is normal, but rather operating under the horribly incorrect impression that they can “fix it” or “get it right” the second time around. These unfortunate folks are hoping to correct a problem with their past that was never really their problem to begin with. Of course, this never works.
I’ve seen this in action too many times. I’ve met women who were, blindingly obvious to everyone but themselves, making terrible choices when it came to relationships. If I felt comfortable enough to do so, I would ask them about their parents, and the pitiful stories I would hear! Daddy was in prison, or a raging alcoholic or used to touch them in naughty places. It’s sad.
I believe that xizor is referring to what is called “comfort circles”, a situation where we often sub-conciously seek out and build our adult adult relationships that are reflective of our childhood relationships. This affects our careers and our relationships as adults. I often look at our children and make predictions as to who they will be as adults.
A simple example; if you were an older child and were responsible for caring for your younger siblings you may seek out people and situations where you are responsible for the well being of others.
I have done some checking and most of the people I work with were nurturers in their childhood either out of choice or neccessity. Quite often these poeple are the oldest children or are middle children who’s older siblings have moved away leaving them as the oldest and most responsible children in the home. I fall into this category.
Women who come from abusive backgrounds will often find themselves in abusive relationships as adults even though they did not conciously seek out an abuser. I dated a woman who couldn’t deal with me because I was nice, she told me that she kept expecting me to hit her or abuse her in some way. She had an intimate understanding of abuse but had no experience in healthy relationships.
People seek out what they know and understand even if it’s not good for them. Some comfort circles are of benefit such as carrying on the role of the nurturer as an adult. Other’s are not good and it can be difficult to get people to break out of circles that include abuse.
People can change and I have seen ample evidence that it is possible.