So, why scumbags? Seriously, why?

In My Humble Opinion
1

OK, so I read another story about the married man, or about the abusive boyfriend, or the local lover-boy on the rebound, or any of a dozen other familiar stories. It leaves me with a peculiar feeling in my stomach. Like a leftover teen angst heartache from four decades ago. So my question is to the ladies.

Why do you love these scumbags? I know, I know, you never knew he was . . . whatever. I don’t believe it. Sorry if that is harsh, but the numbers don’t add up. The only times in my entire life when women obviously flirted with me, with serious intent were when I was married, and when I was an incarcerated psychotic. Now the ladies in the nut house have an excuse, but most of you are out on the loose.

I check it out with my friends. Take Sean. Now you can’t have Sean anymore, cause Sean is married. But he was a twenty five year old, six foot three, red haired, green eyed Irishman, who happened to be gentle, kind, honest, and by the way great with kids. He was also a virgin, who was pretty sure that no woman was ever going to come along for him. He was a bit shy, although not socially inept. Girls ignored him in droves, for years. It broke his heart. Then Sue came along. Sue was six years older, and waaaaay more world-weary. She saw what she had been missing, and snatched him up.

Then there is Larry who is, witty, verbal, and bright. He was so in love with Diane that he moved out of his mom’s house right after High School, and started working two jobs to get a down payment for a house. Diane went off to college, and just about the time Larry has what he thinks is a great new job that will let him buy that house, and marry her, she tells him she needs more adventure, more experience. That turns out to be her new musician boyfriend from college. Two years later she’s back in town, with the rocker’s baby, and a bad drug habit. Larry marries her. The other day, she tells me in confidence that she “really does love Larry, but he doesn’t really excite her.”

I don’t get it. The mythos of our society is that men have the shallow motives in matters of the heart. Men are the ones who are “out for what they can get.” OK, so it is a stereotype. But the stereotype of the abusive drunk kicking the crap out of his girlfriend always does have one thing appears in every single telling of the tale. The scumbag has a girlfriend. And my own observations is that the scumbags always have girlfriends, and often they have three or four. If you treat women like dirt, I am told by the scumbags, they come crawling to you for more. I want to tell them scornfully that that is not true. But I can’t tell them that. They are out on dates.

OK, so everyone has a chance to say, “Well not me.” Fine, not you. But I want to here from her. The one who does hang out with drunks and rock wannabees, and self centered bad boys, and dates married men. Why? Do you like getting the crap beat out of you, or being left for Ms. Next? Are you just stupid? Is the dangerous man so sexy that you want to risk your life for a hot night? What is so attractive about such men?

Tris

2

When you girls are done with that, keep in mind I’m in Kansas City, 19, available, blonde hair, blue eyes, 6’1", 160lbs, nice, funny, thoughtful, shy, and lonely.

:frowning:

–Tim

3

Read Six Moon Dance by Sheri S. Tepper. It will answer your questions, though you may not like it.

4

As soon as I get out of hock to the library I will check it out.

Tris

5

Are there Cliff’s Notes?

6

It’s relatively recent science fiction, so I’d be surprised if the library has it, or if there’s a Cliff’s Notes version of it.

7

I wouldn’t go as far as saying that women who are attracted to these types of men are stupid…I’d say they see some good in these otherwise scummy men.

It’s very human to think: He’s a cheater…but he won’t cheat on me…or…sure he hits women, but she deserved it and he won’t hit me.

Men are the same way…illistrated by your pal, Larry.
She walked on him, and he still wants her…and her child.

Women do need more personal power. If you love her, and want to see her succeed, the you help develop that power.

Of course…you shouldn’t hit them either.

8

Why scumbags? excellent question.

For a long time I was terrified of the guys that treated me well-I mean, I didn’t believe I was worth it, even though I am highly intelligent, and NOW have the confidence to accept being well treated. Without that belief that you are worth it, you look for the ones who treat you how you believe you should be treated.

I like to believe that most women get past it eventually, though there are some who definately never do.

Now, I do take a second look at the nice guys-and ignore the scumbags. So you know a nice guy in Atlanta? send him over to see me-it’s harder to meet them than I realized.

9

WAG:

Being a “scumbag” usually seems to involve having over-developed self-confidence. Self-confidence is a very attractive trait, especially in the early stages of a relationship. It’s easier to talk to someone who appears open and at ease with themselves than to try to “break through” to someone who looks shy and uneasy. Scumbags get the attention because nice guys don’t have the confidence to really “sell” themselves and be natural.

Yes, it’s a generalisation, but I don’t think it’s entirely unfair.

10

Do nice guys finish last? Sometimes, yes. During the growning years, ie: high school and college, quite often, yes. It irritated me to no end when I saw a friend of mine continue to go back to this guys that cheated on her (she walked in on him and he yelled at her to "get the fuck out, [he’s] busy!), took money from her (he never had money), and just generally treated her like shit. I saw more subdued forms of this often in college, too. Those are the things that stick out. The glaring, awful relationships that you just can’t understand. And you’ll notice that the women almost always say the same thing “you don’t understand, he treats me well, he really loves me…blah blah blah.” Yeah, OJ loved Nichole, too.

Then there are the 12 weddings I’ve been too of friends of mine form college. All of them (well, 11 of them anyway) great couples, and all were dating in college. You tend not to notice the benign, the normal slides under the radar so you seem only to be aware of these terrible mis-matches, the coupling you just cannot understand.

I wonder if this is part of what lets the good men, the stable and safe men, slide under the nose of the women we long for, while the “scumbags,” dirtballs, assholes, et al seem to be the objects of desire. Something you hear about, once in a while, are the relationships where one or the other suddenly realizes one day that here is this wonderful person that they care about very much and they have been there all along, supportive, caring, and good. TV and movies play up to this on occassion. It’s the myth of realizing love in a friend.

Nice guys of the world, take heart that we are the catch the women want, they just need to find it in themselves to lose the emotional baggage of the scumbags. Or something like that.

11

I agree this is probably 50% of it at least. Another large percentage is that, despite how often we insist that looks don’t matter as much to women - they do matter, maybe as much as they do to men. Men have no monopoly on being shallow and appearance-driven. We women are just as bad.

12

From my narrow, limited and somewhat bitter point of view, what women seem to see as ‘self-confidence’ in these scumbags is often, in reality, arrogance, disrespect and self-centeredness. Similarly, what women see as lack of self-confidence in ‘nice guys’ is often, in reality, respect and humility.

In the case of these ‘bad boys’, the negative arrogance may appear to be positive self-confidence. When the newness wears off, the arrogance, etc., is finally seen for what it really is. The guy didn’t suddenly change over that time; the gal was just blinded, whether from bulging pecs, sweet talk, wealth or whatever.

Meanwhile, nice guys (of which I like to think I am one) remain alone. I am perfectly secure in who I am. However because I see women as more than mere pieces of meat, and as a result cannot bring myself to even think about starting a relationship without being freinds first, I will most likely die alone.

I have a female friend with whom I am very much in love. However, I just don’t ‘glitter’ enough for her. I am the one who has always been there to pick her up when she falls, I am the one who stands by her when her other ‘friends’ scurry off in times of trouble, and I have never hurt her.

And because of those things, I will only ever be her friend. “Nice” just isn’t sexy (and that’s ultimately what it all boils down to), no matter what anyone tells you.

13

** Tris, ** I’m sure no expert on this, but waaayyyy back when I was young AND attracted to the wrong, badboy kinda guys, it had more to do with ME wanting to be a ‘badgirl’ but not having the guts to do it. I lived precariously THROUGH the misadventures of the young toughs.

TILL I finally grew up, and decided ‘through’ anyone was wrong, not just ‘tough’ guys, but ANY guy.

But there are as many reasons as there are ‘scumbags’. There * are scumbag * females too and with whom else should they be? It’s just TOO bad they know how to procreate isn’t it???

14

Welcome to my life. The fridge is over there. Trash gets picked up on monday. Women will be calling to complain about their relationships every little while. They don’t actually want your imput, just make little encouraging noises every few minutes.

One would think the the thought that the women who go with those kind of men are suffering from emotional problems and would probably make poor partners would be comforting on some level.

One would be incorrect.

I’ve heard tales of women who are both attracted to nice guys, available, and not obviously “settling.” I have no actual evidence of this, but I have high hopes of someday meeting one.

Not that I’m bitter, or anything.

–
“REJECTED MAN!”

15

When I was on the dating scene between my two marriages, I often found that guys I was interested in were definitely not interested in women with children.

I would love to have met sensitive caring, kind men, and I did meet a few, but things didn’t work out. Sometimes things just need to happen in the proper time, I have been told. I was also told that love would be more likely to find me when I wasn’t so desperately seeking it.

The abusive, macho types never attracted me. I believe that may have more to do with the way these women were raised and what their self-esteem is like, as to why they are willing to put up with controlling and/or abusive guys.

You seem like such a nice person, I am sure that someday you will find someone with whom to share your life.

Best wishes to you, and all you other nice people.

16

All those hours I wasted watching loveline are finally going to pay off! Dr. Drew expalins it kinda like this (I’m going from memory): It has to do with family life when they were growing up. If the girl’s parents fought or were split up, it created chaos in the home. Subconsciously the girl then tries to recreate this chaos in the relationships she forms as she gets older. She unknowingly seeks out mates who are unstable because that is what her warped sense of family tells her is normal. That is also why woman will treat nice guys like crap too.

17

I think you are right on about this. I think also sometimes women feel they are unworthy of nice guys and somehow, consciously or unconsciously, drive them away.

18

In my case, because I believed I deserved to be treated like that. And I would wager it’s that way for at least half the women out there. I thought it was all I could get, and it was a damn sight better than being alone AGAIN.

Why the reverse, too? Is it just the “men go for appearances more” crap I’ve always heard? Because TRUST ME, nice girls finish last as well.

And FUCK, now I’m depressed. Where’s that Ben & Jerry’s…

19

Share it with me, babe, share it with me.

–Tim

20

Gladly, sweetie, gladly.

And hey, how come you never come into chat anymore! :frowning: