So, why scumbags? Seriously, why?

Okay. Here’s the story of a girl who’s seen both sides.

Background: Intact family. I don’t think I have any issues with father figures, aside from the normal approval-seeking. No abuse. My parent’s marriage has had its rough patches, but they’ve been together for more than 30 years and are probably happier with each other now than they’ve ever been.

First serious high-school boyfriend: Initially a very sweet teenage romance. But there was the element of bad-boy in him. I was an honor student, top of my class, president of the honor society, general nerd, blah blah blah. He was a fair-to-poor student, popular, had trouble with the police, and except for the military, totally ambitionless. I lost my virginity to this guy. We had an off-and-on high school drama relationship. He started to smack me around. I got pregnant. He persuaded me to keep the baby, said that we would get married, etc. I bit, and Mr. Wonderful took off for basic training. He’s seen son for twenty minutes on two separate occasions, both in the first 8 months. After nearly a year of buying his long-distance crap, I finally bailed.

Second boyfriend: 4 1/2 year relationship. A former co-worker, funny, charming, average looking. He never had any problem meeting girls/having girlfriends. The first year was great. He’s a very personable guy, easy to like. Not too bright, but charming enough to cover it up. But as time progressed, I found out more about him. He was jealous (he claimed he was scared I’d go back to my son’s father); he was possessive (he demanded that I spend a certain amount of time with him, without my son; I rarely saw my friends); he completely ignored my son (except, naturally, for the first few months); never spent time with my friends, though we saw his all the time; belittled my physical appearance (when I had uterine fibroids he actually said, “If they can’t fix it,you’re going on a diet.”). He convinced me that no one would ever want me because I had a kid. So what did I do? I moved across the country to live with him (he was transferred for a job), of course. It was 1-1/2 years of crap-o-rama. A few months after returning to my hometown, I broke it off. He went absolutely psycho.

After a period of dating a couple of absolute fucking freaks, I began seeing a friend of a co-worker I’d met shortly after the breakup. Totally not the type I’d ever dated before, but completely the type I’d always wanted to date - funny, dorky, ever so smart and cute cute cute, a consummate geek. He’s the embodiment of the boys I had a crush on in high school, but who would never talk to me (?). He gets my weird references. We both giggle when someone says “toot”. He likes baseball, the Simpsons, the Tick, and Space Ghost. He knows who Scylla and Charybdis are. He uses commas and apostrophes properly. Most importantly, he likes my bizarre little boy. He is the nice guy. For the first time, I really feel like someone gets me, and I don’t feel like I’m settling for something less than I can have. The thing about it is, I’m his first serious girlfriend (we’re both 25). I’ve told him that I worry, sometimes, that the girls who passed him up before will be shortly coming to the realization that they missed out on this amazing guy.

The upshot of all this is that yep, lots of chicks dig complete jerks. Particularly young women. It’s not always looks; it’s not always money; it’s not always father issues; it’s often simply inexperience. Sometimes, the nicest-appearing guy turns out to be a turd. Myself, I got hoodwinked, and was in pretty deep before I found out the truth about them. Are all of you “nice guys” telling me that you never thought a girl (someone you dated, or a friend) was incredible only to find out much later that she was, in fact, a raging bitch? I mean, duh…bad people are often deceptive.

Sorry, I didn’t mean to post all of that. I hit “submit” instead of “preview”.

I went through my “Bad-boy” period when I was 15. Now I like to stick to nice guys. I consider myself lucky to not have any scars to show for that dark period.

I won’t speak to why women hang around with the creeps, abusers, and just plain obnoxious jerks, though I’ve got my theories. Most of that’s already been addressed here, anyway.

But as one of those ‘nice guys’ who spent far more of his single years without a GF than with one (didn’t meet my wife until I was 34, so that covers a pretty fair stretch of time), I do have some insights into that side of the equation.

I don’t think very many of my breed are looking for Elle McPherson or Christy Turlingdrome. (I’m not just speaking for my younger self here; I had plenty of similarly-situated friends.) We knew we couldn’t play in that league, and didn’t even bother approaching the knockouts. On the whole, we were looking for our opposite numbers - the women who were decent-looking, but who would be under the radar screen of the types who were looking for arm candy, and who would actually be fun to have an extended conversation with.

That latter was especially important, and it’s not surprising that we wound up attracted to our woman friends. Which is where this post shifts gears. The following is specifically addressed to the nice guys out there. I see two particular traps that guys fall into, based on IRL experience, and reading a lot of posts here: one is that of hoping the friendship will turn into romance (it won’t), and the other’s hoping something will fall into your lap (it might, but it’s unlikely). In a way, the first one is a subset of the second.

It may occasionally happen that a long-term M-F friendship evolves into romance, but - let’s face it, guys - that’s not the way to bet. It’s a longshot at best. On the whole, it seems that there’s a certain window of opportunity, as you’re getting to know a woman, where things can go one way or the other, toward romance or friendship.

Once they’ve comfortably settled in to the latter track, though, you’re pretty much stuck there, unless something happens that causes her to look at you through new eyes. Like, you move away (or she does), you don’t see her for a couple of years, and then you run into each other again. (The longest-lasting of my romances (before my wife, that is) began this way.) But that’s not the sort of thing you can do much about, on the whole.

The message here is, if you’re hung up on a woman who’s already a longstanding friend, give up on it. (Or, if you must, give it your best shot - wine her and dine her, tell her how serious your feelings for her are - and if you get nowhere, give up.) Take advantage of those windows of opportunity with women you meet along the way.

But the key thing is, you have to develop some level of confidence in yourself. Since we nice guys tend to start out with the expectation that women won’t respond to our advances, we’ve got to go through a certain amount of taking some chances and being willing to fall on our faces a few times, before we actually get into some worthwhile relationships that will build our confidence levels.

And even though this is 2000, and more women take the initiative than used to be the case, we (especially we nice guys) can’t depend on being the beneficiaries of such initiative. We have to learn to come out of ourselves and make the first move, and the second and the third if need be. (After that, if we’re not seeing some reciprocation, it’s probably time to give up and move on. I think it was W.C. Fields who said, “If at first you don’t succeed, try again. Then quit. No use being a damned fool about it.”)

Believe me, I understand how hard this can be. It certainly took me long enough to absorb these lessons. But I really believe this is the way it is.

Still, my suspicion is that, if you’re willing to show the least bit of initiative, dating now can be easier than it used to be. There are new ways of meeting people now - like this message board, for instance. Can’t imagine a better opportunity than this, for us nice guys (and nice gals) - we can get to know each other from the inside out, so to speak. On the Internet, nobody notices that you don’t have abs of steel, or have a few extra pounds. (And frankly, they’re less likely to care.) And here we are in a perpetual, ongoing, free-for-all conversation where anyone can join in - none of the awkwardness of IRL situations, where you aren’t sure how to break the conversational ice with someone. Go to Dopefests in your area - or, if there’s someone that you seem to have some good online chemistry with, go to the next Dopefest in her area. Long-distance relationships are far better than no relationships at all. And the window of opportunity operates differently in this environment, I sense - it stays open much longer, is what my intuition tells me.

But, to paraphrase Dennis Miller, all this is just my opinion. I could be wrong. :wink:

I can never tell if I’m an actual nice guy or if I’m a scumbag who simply hasn’t flown his scumbag flag high enough for women to be attracted to.

Let me try something to possibly help my attractiveness profile …

“I like to kick puppies!”

“I like to take candy from babies!”

“I like to trip old women who are using walkers!”

“Women shouldn’t have strong opinions on anything!”

“I NEVER TIP!”

“I call my girfriend by dialing zero instead of 1-800-CALL-ATT!” (if I had a girlfriend, mind you)

“I’m glad they shot Old Yeller at the end of the movie!”

There! That should do it.

Lsura wrote:

Well, I’m a nice guy in Atlanta (Duluth, to be specific) – just a short (or long, depending on time of day :slight_smile: ) trip up I85

Am I the only one?

I am male, and i have often wondered why I end up with all these girls who treat me like crap.

I don’t do it on purpose, but I think I somehow end up finding myself attracted to girls who are a bit edgy, unpredictable.
Maybe it’s the thrill or pursuit or something, but if a girl likes me a lot, and is willing to do whatever i say, i don’t feel so attracted to her.

It mirrors the “why do I only date jerks” thing.

All those “Nice Guys”- why are you putting up with girls who think you are boring and treat you like you are boring?

But what do I know? This is what…my fourth post? And I’M the codependant one here…

Just a thought.

I don’t actually know why they do this. I consider myself a nice guy. I’ve never been in jail, have no criminal record, never beat up a lady, nor even those whose ‘ladieness’ is in question. Great work record. I don’t abuse drugs, though I’m not above smoking a little pot from time to time.

I am shy, at first. It is real hard for me to meet women and when it became the ‘in’ thing for women to make the first move, I was ecstatic, except few made any moves towards me and those who did were not my type at all.

I have pursued lovely, sweet and kind women, treated them well only to loose them to some clod who works construction, gets into bar fights, has big muscles - including the one in his head, and spends more time on his bass boat with his bass buddies than with her. Two lovely and suitably drunk ladies encountered me at a bar and asked me to take them home at closing. I was overjoyed! I got my hopped up car to meet them at the door and found that they decided to go with this other guy, with a more expensive car who looked like he was used to getting any girl he wanted.

I’ve had girlfriends who just had to cheat on me, usually with some creep interested only in sex and who treated them like crap afterwards. Through it all, I’ve heard so many ‘he treat(ed)(s) me like shit’ oh where are the good men? stories’ that I want to barf when I read or hear another one. Especially when friends of mine become the walking wounded after being dumped by similar girls.

Unfortunately, many of the women I run into now, seeking a good guy have that hard mileage look on their faces and in their eyes that I find repulsive or a ‘you aint gonna hurt me’ attitude already set up. You can see that they gave all their good stuff to the bad boys and are not about to do it for anyone else. Well, hell, I want some of that ‘good stuff’ too!

I had similar problems. I would be exceedingly nice to the girls I liked, who would all use me and treat me like dirt while they themselves were used by jerks.

Then I had what I guess was an epiphany. There was this girl I worked with and liked. I was giving her a ride to a party, and she was talking about her boyfriend, who was obviously a pathological liar and a real asshole. Suddenly, I didn’t feel sorry for her at all - I just saw her as weak and naive. I broke down and told her exactly what I thought of her boyfriend AND her, basically let her know I could see right through her facade of being tough and independent and that she would believe anything to fool herself into believing she wasn’t a pawn.

I thought I lost a friend after I finished. She cried a while, and didn’t say anything to me the rest of the way, nor much at the party. I was surprised when she told me after she wanted to go home with me. I realized how easy she was to manipulate, and the more I did it the less I thought of her, and the more she cared about what I thought about her - kinda a vicious circle.

I got a lot more confident after that, and my friend’s girlfriend started liking me more. We started chatting online while I was at work and she was at her parent’s. I didn’t even like her, unlike the first girl, which made it even easier. I would tell her about how I was manipulating and using the other girl and other people, and she would tell me I was so bad, but I could see the attraction. In a couple of days she was sneaking out to be with me, knocking on my door late at night - it got to the point where she was a nuisance, she was practically stalking me. One time she asked me if I was using her, I told her yes, and she still kept coming. When I got tired of her I deliberately tried to be an even bigger asshole to her, and it didn’t work.

All I did was become more of a jerk and suddenly I had two girls I could get sex from pretty much whenever, who were intensely jealous of each other, and one of my old female friends who I had once been in love with but had zero interest in me was flirting with me a lot. But it was a hollow victory - to get the women I had to stop caring about them, and though I could probably have had a real relationship with either of them, they were both flawed and I wanted better (getting lots of sex makes you picky). Luckily I met a woman I liked for a number of reasons, who was strong-willed and self-sufficient who was sick of assholes. We hit it off really well (without me being a jerk to her), we were living together within a week of meeting, were engaged not long after that, and now we are married.

I don’t know if I would have gotten her if I hadn’t gone through that asshole phase, though. My personality changed a bit during that time, I no longer feel sorry for myself and I have a lot more confidence. My wife likes no-bullshit guys who don’t dwell on their problems all the time, and before I did a lot of moping and kissed ass too much to be considered ‘no-bullshit’.

I once had a boyfriend who cheated on me twice. And I kept going back to him. He was a jerk; he always belittled people and even treated me mean sometimes. I guess I just liked him because he paid attention to me and he was a guy. He was my first boyfriend. Methinks that my self esteem was low enough to the point that I thought, “If I break up with him I’ll never find another guy ever again.” Besides, he had his moments when he was affectionate, and, being the naive young girl I was, I was sucked in by it.

I’m glad I’ve matured. I have a “nice guy” now.

I have a much simpler excuse. I can’t get a woman because all the women in my area are already attached to somebody else. (The Silicon Valley is notorious for its high male-to-female ratio.)

Fortunately, for a while now I haven’t felt like I “needed” a girlfriend. I don’t know how long this will last before I go back to cryiong myself to sleep in abject loneliness, though. These long-term moods come and go.