And a couple other questions about “Palestinian territory”:
Were Egypt and Jordan occupying “Palestinian territory” between 1948 and 1967?
Does Jordan occupy “Palestinian territory” today?
I am not afraid to say, despite the top-down direction that forbids criticism, that if Israel goes through with a plan to convert the Dome of the Rock into a kosher delicatessen, I will oppose it with every fiber of my being.
Or at the very least, I’ll write a stern note to AIPAC. :mad:
Oh, really? Damuri, let’s check on what Other Damuri says and see which of you is correct.
Sorry Damuri, Other Damuri calls bullshit on your claim. Maybe you two should meet up to get your stories straight.
See, when you repeat that argument, typified by paranoid fantasies of persecution, which you’ve repeatedly been shown to be false? It shows that your argument, especially when it’s paranoid fictions about AIPAC controlling the public discourse, should be taken with a watermelon sized grain of salt without actual proof. The simple fact that you’re still imagining that there are folks here who say that people who don’t support Israel enough are “anti-Semites” proves that you are unable or unwilling to produce a narrative that bears a resemblance to reality on this topic. And that your argument is often typified by libelous flights of fantasy about your opponents, required for you to cast yourself as a persecuted rebel daring to speak the truth.
Well, either that or Tom recognizes that I’m your bete noir and your arguments repeatedly are typified by flights of fantasy about how I’m persecuting you horribly, and you’ve gone on record in the past as saying that you hold bigoted views against Israel as a nation but that it’s my fault because I control your thoughts (just like a Zionist, naturally) and so the fact that you automatically see things in an anti-Israel light that you have to work against if you want to even appear even handed, according to you, is due to my Zionist meddling.
But, of course, you were so eager to get in a dig against me that you evidently failed to understand Tom’s point, at all. There are plenty of Americans who do criticize Israel’s settlement policy, which you specifically said we tolerate and wouldn’t tolerate from any other nation. Of course, we do tolerate exactly such things from various allies. Have you heard much protest from the US recently about the ethnic cleansing that happened in Europe against German citizens post WWII? Have you, perhaps, heard the US demanding that they be repatriated or compensated? No?
Funny, that.
Zionists are to blame somehow, I’m sure you can find out how.
Great, which is why you pointed zero of them out and just linked to a data dump index for a whole bunch of polls. In fact, according to your own cite, 66 percent of Americans either think we’re just supportive enough of Isreal (46%) or we need to do more (20%). 55 percent think we’re either giving enough support (38%) or too little (17%). But don’t worry, I’m sure Other Damuri can come along to explain how that’s AIPAC’s doing.
Did you even have any point with that, or were you just vomiting up a bunch of polls in the hope that someone else could find one that supported your claims?
But we all know that this is an impossible requirement to meet.
The gist of your requirement is ability to demonstrate divergence, if any, between intentions and goals of the lobby on one side and political opinion of the majority of American people.
Let’s assume that the only way to verify “political opinion of the majority of American people” is by way of polls.
Let’s also take one of the many issues that lobby is pursuing – namely, American aid to Israel.
Here’s an example of a poll from November of 1994 that shows majority of Americans favouring phasing-out (i.e. removing) American aid to Israel (53 vs. 36) - http://www.wrmea.org/wrmea-archives/158-washington-report-archives-1994-1999/november-december-1994/7652-poll-shows-majority-of-us-public-supports-israeli-aid-phase-out.html
Needless to say, nothing came out of it in Congress – the aid continued to be designated and has continued to increase. Even in the harshest of the times, the recent financial crisis and its impact on federal budget issues, where every aspect of budgeting received cuts; in fact, those were the most broad cuts ever undertaken during US federal budget process, one thing that was never questioned nor brought up was the question of US financial aid to Israel. Do you think that Congressmen who voted for aid increase amid US budget crisis really consulted with people in their district if that is what they want? Or, that there was a poll asking if the aid should be removed or reduced as part of overall budget crisis? Is it really that the only thing - if one is to read Congress letter to Obama to not touch aid to Israel – is it really that Congress cannot agree on anything but this issue? Seems quite far fetched that in the polarized spectrum of American politics “political opinion of the majority of American people” for this issue is settled.
But, having said all that, that’s really not the point. The point is that the way lobby operates is incompatible with the idea of verifying and aligning lobby activities with “political opinion of the majority of American people”.
For how it works, I’ll refer once more to secretly recorded phone call between AIPAC’s David Steiner and potential donor Haim Katz - ULTRA88 :: Bonus melimpah, promo seru, kemenangan besar!
As it was suggested, that is enough evidence for people who can read for themselves. I’m sure that you – and others - will come back and just repeat the same mantra “I’m not convinced”. At this point, it is a clear case of intellectual dishonesty at the very least and cognisant ignorance at the worst.
Our silence on the subject of whether or not we have stopped beating our wives as of yet? What volumes does it speak? :eek:
It wouldn’t be if what you were saying is true.
Ponder just why it’s “impossible” to show any proof of your claims.
No, that’s an example of someone commenting on a poll from 1994 (an outlier, what’s more). And a poll conducted by the CNI. Speaking of 1994, that was the year CNI’s educational arm, CNIF had its request for tax exemption denied, with the IRS saying it was rejecting their petition because: “your biased presentation does not promote public education”. Why don’t you at least link to the actual poll’s methodology, question set, etc… and we can discuss it. But if you have to go back 20 years to get a poll that makes it look like Americans agree with you, and then ONLY on funding and not on any other American foreign policies wrt Israel, it’s a good sign you’re in trouble.
Do you really think that American foreign policy would be, or should be, changed based on one single poll?As a matter of fact, Americans reliably and consistently poll as overwhelmingly more pro-Israel than pro-Palestine. Often by a ratio of 3:1, at least.
Fictional. Just like the other bogeyman, the NRA, AIPAC works by publicity and organizing voters. The idea that it somehow distorts policy or voting or anything else is, as of yet, utterly unsupported by even a single one of you making the claim in this thread.
While your link without elaboration, quotation or analysis is par for the course for anti-Israel posters in this thread, you really do need to actually use your words to post ideas. What’s so bad about what was said in the interview? Specifically?
Yes yes, those who don’t agree with your fact-and-logic-free argument must be intellectually dishonest or what have you, because otherwise they’d just accept your views as gospel. But pretend that you’re talking to people who aren’t already True Believers, and actually put forward a case. That this is beyond every single anti-Israel poster in this thread so far does not speak well of your position.
Here, I’ll even do the legwork for you. If you want to focus on public funding, here’s an archive of a whole bunch of different polls over time. You’ll notice that, indeed, support/opposition tends to be fairly balanced, and slip especially when questions are specifically asked with dollar amounts. Of course, that also demonstrates how question phrasing can change a respondent’s answers, as questions about whether or not we properly support Israel overwhelmingly show that respondents in America support or want to expand the status quo wrt US support of Israel.
Maybe you quoted the wrong post but the snip you quoted doesn’t say “AIPAC controls public opinion” Or are you reading things into it that I have not said.
I’m pretty sure I cited where Brazil84 implies that anti-semitism is the root of almost all criticism of israel. Or do i have to keep that cite on speed-dial for you?
The instances where anti-semtiism is implied are very common, like when people wonder out loud “gee, I wonder why Damuri critizes Israel but not North Korea or Syria, I wonder what it is about Israel that makes Damuri focus on criticizing Israel but no other state. Gee wonder what it is about Israel that Damuri has a problem with”
You have a very high opinion of your importance in this world don’t you? You also have a distorted recollection of the past. You keep repeating this comment about how I admit to bigotry when I am really saying that aruging with someone with your style of argument predisposes me against your position, i.e. you hurt your own cause.
So when was the last time Europe bombed the refugee camps of these ethnically cleansed Germans? Or blockaded them so that they couldn’t get military supplies like chocolate and coriander.
[quote]
Zionists are to blame somehow, I’m sure you can find out how.{/quote]
What is it about Zionism that you think people find so offensive?
Your uncritical support for Israel became transaparent a long time ago. Its pointless arguing with you because you have a set of stock responses you use to respond to all criticisms of Israel, its like you’re following a rebuttal script.
Damuri, do you know what we say when people claim to be seeing or hearing things that don’t actually exist?
That you can claim I’m “uncritically supporting” Israel in the same thread where you just responded to Tom pointing out that I’ve specifically criticized Israel’s settlement policies just proves that your arguments are routinely based on fiction and fantasy, you do not allow facts to modify your beliefs, and you will repeat them over and over. In fact, in trying to shift the topic to your fantasy about me, you deliberately skipped responding to the fact that the very cite you just provided proves you wrong, and you didn’t even attempt to pull statistics to support your position. You’re now trying to change the subject and instead of admitting error, modifying your position or even trying to support it, you’re trying to go on the attack based on a fantasy about my behavior.
In other words, if your argument is that it’s raining, someone should go to the window to make sure.
Or maybe you’re playing semantic games in this thread, again.
You just claimed that we wouldn’t be opposing Palestinian statehood if it wasn’t for AIPAC. I quoted you saying that. Support for an independent Palestinian state has, IIRC, never climbed and stayed above 45ish percent in America in anything but outliers, and I’m pretty sure that was for contextual/negotiated and not unilateral independence. You are claiming that our lack of support for unilateral independence is evidence that AIPAC controls the political climiate and public opinion, then perhaps you should rein in your bombast, bluster, and conspiracy casting, and actually try to do more than claim that since your opinions are not held by a majority of Americans, there must be enemy action going on.
Snarking at me when you’re provably wrong isn’t a good idea. It makes your argument look very silly. Well, sillier. Maybe keep a dictionary on speed dial if you don’t use proper English vocabulary correctly, eh?
You owe the thread a retraction, as you’ve just admitted that your claim that "there are folks here who say that people who don’t support Israel enough are “anti-Semites” is purely fabricated. The best you can say is ‘Well, there’s this gone guy who said something once.’ And, if I’m also not mistaken, even your Big Bad Brazil only said that about people who are strongly anti-Israel, not those who don’t “support Israel enough”. I’d wager that not even Brazil would say that someone who doesn’t give a fuck about I/P and doesn’t have an opinion is an anti-Semite.
But your argument’s currency is fiction and bombast.
As pointed out to you numerous times, you can be bigoted against a nation, and indeed you’ve admitted in the Dope’s public record that your thought process is naturally bigoted against Israel, without also being an anti-Semite. You’ve been told this repeatedly. The fact that you keep alleging you’ve been routinely accused of anti-Semitism, despite the fact that you can’t cite more than one single example in your entire time on the Dope, is just yet more of the persecution fantasy that your argument relies on. That your argument is couched in not just fantasy, but paranoid fantasy suggests that it is a highly improper framework through which to analyze something as complicated as United States politics and foreign policy, especially since your claims rely on nefarious enemy to explain why politicians and voters don’t agree with you.
That is fictional. You said nothing of the sort. You said that whenever you read or hear anything about Israel, your thought process is to automatically try to put it in the worst light possible and you have to work against that bigoted tendency. Then, yep, you claimed that I control your thoughts and you were completely non-responsible for the fact that that’s how you approach the issue. Why you do this sort of thing to yourself when all I have to do is quote you, is beyond me. But okay…
So, there we have it. You claimed that whenever you had “new facts” you didn’t try to figure them out but, “[try] to figure out how the new facts can be incorporated into a narrative against Israel.” That you are, in fact, a “knee-jerk Israel criticizer.” That, in fact, your thought process is so firmly anti-Israel that you need to make a conscious effort to begin to not think the way your mind naturally would. And, just as I said, that you think I’m a magic wizard who controls your mind, and you take no responsibility for your own thoughts. I know it’s comforting to try to blame someone else for how your own mind works, but if you’re curious about why someone might "wonder what it is about Israel that makes Damuri focus on criticizing Israel but no other state. " You admitted it. It’s that your thought process is habitually bigoted against Israel.
That you keep trying to pretend you’ve been called an anti-Semite is an absurdity. One that, evidently, you intend to milk for all it’s worth.
Your standard semantic game playing. This time, it’s a game about how Hamas, a group dedicated to the genocide of the Jewish people in general and the destruction of Israel in specific, is being blockaded not to prevent it from arming and supplying itself, but because of the incidental aspects of the blockade such as chocolate. And you wonder why people might suggest your anti-Israel arguments are hardly to be taken at face value?
As for bombing refugee camps, you’ve again shot yourself in the foot, as the world has displayed over and over that it will heap disproportional attention on Israeli actions against Arabs, but will sit idly by when other nations do the same. How many UN resolutions, boycotts, etc… do you recall when Lebanon was using indiscriminate artillery fire targeting Palestinian refugee camps in 2007? Ya know, when they pretty much bombed the shit out of it for three months? How big is the annual memorial for Hama, Syria, 1982? How big is the annual memorial for Deir Yassin, Mandate Territory, 1948. Want to guess which one had the bigger death toll? Want to guess which one was a methodical, proudly supported and deliberate act of mass-murder?
You also display that you have no actual counter for the fact that of course we support other nations despite having deliberately and permanently ethnically cleansed a massive number of Germans. You are, rather obviously, using your knee-jerk anti-Israel attitude to try to cram facts into your anti-Israel worldview. There’s also the fact that Israel doesn’t just “bomb refugee camps” but without fail, engages in defensive measures against terrorists in those camps. Yet another fact that you just happened to leave out.
And you wonder why people might think that you’ve got something against Israel?
Really?
I didn’t know you had to pick.
Regards,
Shodan
Agreed. I’d throw in Ann Coulter just to make it more more er…confusing.
Right back at you.
Are you complaining about people playing semantic games? That’s fucking rich.
Yeah, excpet what that guy said was “I think you are probably an anti-semite” and “I think most (almost all?) critics of israel are anti-semiites”
What I said was that running into people like YOU makes people want to take the oppoosite position because you are so unpleasant so I had to be careful not to let your general unpleasantness affect my objectivity towards Israel.
No I cited mroe than one. WAY more than one, you just explain away all the ones where people don’t flat out call me an anti-semite by saying "oh no, we’re not calling DAMURI an anti-semite, we think Damuri is bigoted against ISRAEL (I wonder WHY Damuri is bigoted against Israel, I wonder what it is about Israel that makes Damuri so bigoted against it, hmmm I wonder), but noooo we aren’t calling him and anti-semite.
PUHLEAZE!!!
So why do YOU think I am bigoted against Israel? What is it about Israel (other than your ardent support for it) that makes me hate it with the unquenchable fire of a thousand suns?
Yeah because of my interaction with YOU!
If you ran into a horrible asshole who went on and on about how fucking awesome the Boston Red Sox were, it might affect your opinion of the Red Sox. It wouldn’t be fair to the Red Sox but it might happen because they had a ragins asshole as a fan. Now you’re not a raging asshole but yopu can be very unpleasant in debates dealing with Israel.
Its not mind control, its just a human reaction to an unpleasant person.
Finn complaining about semantics. PFFFT!!!
Israel wasn’t blockading hamas, they were blockading Gaza where Hamas along with a lot of civilians live. So what was the purpose of blockading chololate and spices? Are you entirely dismissing the notion that the blockade was a form of collective punishment of civilians for the actions of hamas?
Has the passage of time caused you to forget these inconvenient facts?
Oh so I shot myself in the foot for criticizing Israel for bombing civilians without criticizing every other instance of people bombing civilians? Its not OK for Israel to bomb civilians just because Hamas or Lebanon is doing it.
OK so what do you think is my beef against Israel?
Why do you think I pick on it so unjustly?
And, as stated, this is why nobody should take your argument seriously. You can’t even admit Hamas was is being blockaded.
That and, of course, when pointed out that you claimed I never criticize Israel right after you responded to Tom’s post about one way that I’ve criticized Israel, rather than retract your error let alone admit your mistake, you’ve doubled down with ‘No U!’
FinnAgain and Damuri Ajashi: no more comments about the other poster. Stick to laying out what you believe to be facts supported by logic and leave the person of the other poster out of the situation.
[ /Moderating ]
Certainly. However, in the context of the current kerfluffle, to support the position you have taken, you also need to demonstrate that the views of the American people have been shaped by the pro-Israeli lobby.
The American people supported the wars on the Indochina peninsula long after the rest of the world rejected that support. The American people reject many national programs they deem as “socialist” that the vast majority of the world accepts. The American people support our utterly silly antagonism to Cuba long after it made any sense and even longer after the rest of the world deemed it silly.
Americans are quite capable of coming to opinions contrary to the rest of the world without any special effort by lobbying groups. So, if you wish to claim that the pro-Israeli lobby is responsible for American opinion, you must provide evidence for that claim.
Will do, sorry to have let it go that far afield. To bring it back to the (current) topic then: public opinion in America is reliably pro-Israel and has been for a long time. In general, Americans sympathize much more with the Israelis than the Palestinians and believe that we offer just enough or too little support to Israel. Some who hold these beliefs are particularly fervent in them, especially the religious right in America. It’s also worth noting that support for Israel is also generally high in older demographic groups in America. And old people vote.
On virtually any topic that the anti-Israel position claims is due “AIPAC [insert synonym for undue influence/control/manipulation/chicanery/monkeyshines etc…]”, Americans are reliably in support of Israel, so there is no need to posit, and no proof yet provided for, any AIPAC Effect. (Henceforth, Æ).
The above mentioned bombing Gaza? Yep.
When Israel was waging all out war with Gaza in 2009, where did the American people’s sympathy lie, by more than a 3:1 ratio? With Israel.
And, of course, if polling questions are controlled for context and respondents are asked not simply if they support a Palestinian state but if they would do so without a signed peace deal with Israel?Americans oppose it by roughly 20 percentage points.
There is no valid support for the Æ other than AIPAC execs trumpeting how awesome they are or the same sort of innuendo-filled allegations we’ve seen in this thread, just repeated by People In The News. *The fact is that AIPAC is seen as a very successful lobby because it’s lobbying for a very popular set of positions. *
~shrugs~
Agree with much you said, but are you seriously suggesting that CANF hasn’t had a lot to do with shaping the irrational American opinion vs the embargo? Money doesn’t just talk, it buys just about anything – short of integrity.
Let’s look at the actual trend.
Not only has support for Israel among Americans remained steady, historically losses and gains to that support tend to come from the “don’t know/no opinion/both” column. American support for the Palestinians remains low at a roughly 1:3 ratio with support for Israel. And the spike in 1991 corresponds rather well to the Gulf War.
Barring CT’s about Zionist media control, there is no way to look at the actual data and say that American leadership is somehow ignoring the will of the people in these matters. Barring actual evidence, there is no reason to suggest that any lobbying group is somehow “anti-democratic”, no matter how effectively it organizes voters. The NRA loses 100% of its clout overnight if not one voter gives a damn about the NRA’s report cards. AARP evaporates if seniors decide that they really don’t need to worry about living on a fixed income, and hey whatever y’all want to do is fine. Nor is it valid to claim that Americans don’t see or have access to anti-Israel viewpoints, especially in an age when many people get their news online.
The whole Æ is a bogeyman.
The Cuban exiles in Florida have enough clout to make Cuba a sticky mess in Florida primaries, but I have never seen any evidence that the general American support for the embargo was fed by CANF literature, particularly with the way that CANF has fractured itself over the last 30 years with splinter groups from it persistently running afoul of U.S. laws with various plots of coups and such.
Not a direct response. I’ll get to that tomorrow if I can – plenty of cites and personal experience with leaders of CANF; classmate of Lincoln Diaz-Ballart, not my best buddy by any means. But I thought you might enjoy reading this article if just for a chuckle: