You’re right of course. I told myself I’d stay out of Israel debates or at least try not to engage certain posters whose style does not mesh well with mine but “I just can’t quit you”
Sure it is. I have no trouble accepting that the Cuban exiles play a very large role in Florida. I have never seen any evidence that they have any influence in Georgia or points North or West from there.
I’m not asking you whether you’ve stopped beating your wife yet and it’s not a gotcha question, I’m asking you basically at what point will you stop supporting Israel if it continues down the apartheid/lawlessness route. You know what I’m asking you and you don’t want to answer it. Neither does anybody else but at least they’re just dodging the question and not trying to give a bullshit rationale why they won’t answer.
I’m not asking you to give up on Israel’s right to exist. Let’s assume for the purpose of the question that Israel is currently whiter than white, isn’t breaking any laws and is the region’s only democracy, blah blah. But then let’s assume that they’re going to start annexing territory, give up trying to make peace with the Palestinians and are heading full speed down the apartheid highway to a South Africa-like situation. Is there any point befopre they get there that you’d stopp supporting them?
If you really don’t know basic stuff like the legal status of the Palestinian territories and exactly what are the Palestinian territories then you need to do a lot of reading before you bother debating people about it.
And in a few short years Jews will be the minority in Israel :
There will be an equal number of Palestinians and Jews in Israel, the West Bank and Gaza Strip by 2016 and by 2020 Jews will be a minority in the area, the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics said on Tuesday.
Such a situation would end the chances for a two-state solution, former Palestinian Authority official Hanan Ashrawi said, implying that Palestinians would not be interested in just the West Bank and Gaza if they could demographically dominate a binational state from the Jordan to the Mediterranean.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/more-palestinians-than-israelis-predicted-in-region-by-2020-report-says/
I’m very much a supporter of Israel, and, yeah, every time they do something bad, I judge them for it. My support can lessen; the whole issue of settlements has reduced the level of my support to some degree.
So, yeah, sure: if they do a whole lot of bad things, I won’t like them any more. I can’t tell you at what exact point my views would tip. The same is true of any nation that does rotten things. I am a supporter of France, but I judged them harshly for the Rainbow Warrior affair. I am a supporter of the U.S., but I’m under no illusions about the things we’ve done wrong. At what point would I stop supporting the U.S.? I don’t know…but I haven’t gotten there yet. Same with Israel.
(I also disagree that Israel has taken any steps at all down the “apartheid” route. I don’t think the term properly applies to the occupied territories; they are under military occupation, and are not the same as South African domestic territories.)
I hadn’t seen this before but five or more years ago I remember reading something similar in which an AIPAC or similar guy was boasting to US donors about how much control they had over US media. He was saying that he could get any story pulled from CNN or changed with just a phone call and that they get US TV to hire terrible interpretors to translate Palestinian/Arab politicians so that when you see a clip of a Palestinian/Arab pol speaking it’s translated by somebody who keeps getting it wrong/re-does the translations as he gets it wrong the first time/is almost unintelligible. They basically want to make it look like all Arabs are dumb as shit, and on the transcript all the donors were laughing and cheering. It made the papers and TV at the time but google fails me.
I’ve got to say when you do hear Arab interpreters on US TV you’ve got to wonder if they’re still doing this. 
Four decades later, the increasingly complex world of Israel’s system of classification deems Said Rhateb to be a resident of the West Bank - somewhere he has never lived - and an illegal alien for living in the home in which he was born, inside the Jerusalem boundary. Jerusalem’s council forces Rhateb to pay substantial property taxes on his house but that does not give him the right to live in it, and he is periodically arrested for doing so. Rhateb’s children have been thrown out of their Jerusalem school, he cannot register a car in his name - or rather he can, but only one with Palestinian number plates, which means he cannot drive it to his home because only Israeli-registered cars are allowed within Jerusalem - and he needs a pass to visit the centre of the city. The army grants him about four a year.
There is more. If Rhateb is not legally resident in his own home, then he is defined as an “absentee” who has abandoned his property. Under Israeli law, it now belongs to the state or, more particularly, its Jewish citizens. “They sent papers that said we cannot sell the land or develop it because we do not own the land. It belongs to the state,” he says. “Any time they want to confiscate it, they can, because they say we are absentees even though we are living in the house. That’s what forced my older brother and three sisters to live in the US. They couldn’t bear the harassment.”
The ‘apartheid wall’
There are few places in the world where governments construct a web of nationality and residency laws designed for use by one section of the population against another. Apartheid South Africa was one. So is Israel…
An Israeli human rights organisation has described segregation of West Bank roads by the military as apartheid. Arab Israeli lawyers argue anti-discrimination cases before the supreme court by drawing out similarities between some Israeli legislation and white South Africa’s oppressive laws. Desmond Tutu, the former archbishop of Cape Town and chairman of South Africa’s truth and reconciliation commission, visited the occupied territories three years ago and described what he found as “much like what happened to us black people in South Africa”.
As far back as 1961, Hendrik Verwoerd, the South African prime minister and architect of the “grand apartheid” vision of the bantustans, saw a parallel. “The Jews took Israel from the Arabs after the Arabs had lived there for a thousand years. Israel, like South Africa, is an apartheid state,” he said. It is a view that horrifies and infuriates many Israelis.
“Apartheid was an extension of the colonial project to dispossess people of their land,” said the Jewish South African cabinet minister and former ANC guerrilla, Ronnie Kasrils, on a visit to Jerusalem. "That is exactly what has happened in Israel and the occupied territories; the use of force and the law to take the land. That is what apartheid and Israel have in common."Others see the common ground in the scale of the suffering if not its causes. “If we take the magnitude of the injustice done to the Palestinians by the state of Israel, there is a basis for comparison with apartheid,” said the former Israeli ambassador to South Africa, Alon Liel.
**
More than two-thirds of Israeli Jews say that 2.5 million Palestinians living in the West Bank should be denied the right to vote if the area was annexed by Israel, in effect endorsing an apartheid state, according to an opinion poll reported in Haaretz.
Three out of four are in favour of segregated roads for Israelis and Palestinians in the West Bank, and 58% believe Israel already practises apartheid against Palestinians, the poll found.
A third want Arab citizens within Israel to be banned from voting in elections to the country’s parliament. Almost six out of 10 say Jews should be given preference to Arabs in government jobs, 49% say Jewish citizens should be treated better than Arabs, 42% would not want to live in the same building as Arabs and the same number do not want their children going to school with Arabs.
A commentary by Gideon Levy, which accompanied the results of the poll, described the findings as disturbing. “Israelis themselves … are openly, shamelessly and guiltlessly defining themselves as nationalistic racists,” he wrote.**
I’ve been a contributor and fundraiser for the UJA-Federation of New York, a governor of the American Jewish Committee, which is dedicated to fighting anti-Semitism, and a founding director of the Museum of Jewish Heritage—A Living Memorial to the Holocaust. I’ve made five additional visits to Israel since 1962, the last this summer as part of a humanitarian aid trip to East Jerusalem and the West Bank. As a Jew who has been an ardent supporter of Israel since its independence, it pains me to record what I saw there. But it is my love for Israel and for the Jewish people that drives me to speak out at this treacherous time.
What I witnessed in the West Bank—home to about 2.5 million Palestinians and 400,000 Israeli settlers—exceeded my worst expectations. While the world’s statesmen have dithered, Israel has created a system of apartheid on steroids, a horrifying prison with concrete walls as high as twenty-six feet, topped with body-ravaging coils of razor wire. Spaced along these walls are imposing guard towers that harbor bunkers from which trespassers can be shot by Israeli soldiers. From this physical segregation—one land for Israelis; another, unequal land for Palestinians—flows a torrent of misery, violence and human rights abuses. The West Bank suffers from acute shortages of water, housing, jobs and healthcare. Palestinian children are separated from their parents, denied access to hospitals and stoned and beaten by Jewish settlers. Human rights sanctioned by international law, including the right to health, the prohibition on transferring populations into occupied territories and equal treatment before the law are routinely violated…
Lol, you claimed it would be illegal for Israel to annex Judea and Samaria so the burden is on you to cite what law would be violated. It’s not my responsibility to go searching for evidence to support your claims.
Besides which, you used the phrase “Palestinian territory” and its incumbent on you to explain what exactly is meant by that phrase.
You won’t even say if Gaza constitutes “Palestinian territory.” Because if you did, you would have to confront the facts that (1) large numbers of Jews were expelled from Gaza in 1948; and (2) for some strange reason you (and the rest of the world) are and were largely untroubled by the Egyptian occupation of “Palestinian territory” between 1948 and 1967.
In short, your use of the phrase “Palestinian territory” conceals an argument and a double-standard which you don’t want to state explicitly and don’t want to defend.
So Israel includes Judea, Samaria, and Gaza? Does that mean it’s all “Jewish territory”?
Certainly it’s a question that contains an assumption - you just can’t help it: “… at what point will you stop supporting Israel if it continues down the apartheid/lawlessness route …”.
I reject your assumption - that Israel is degenerating in the direction of “apartheid and lawlessness”. It is this assumption which makes your question of exactly the same kind as “have you stopped beating your wife yet?” - which, of course, assumes as part of the question that you are beating your wife.
Ask a man if he has stopped beating his wife yet and he may very well angrily refuse to answer, or simply say that he’s never beaten his wife. This is not “proof” he’s an unrepentant wife-beater. Or is it, to you?
A more fair question would be along the lines of “what actions that Israel could potentially take in the future would lose the government of Israel your sympathy and support”, to which the answer, on my part, would fill volumes - for example, attempting in the future to drive Palestinains out of the West Bank or Gaza. Or perhaps “what actions does the current Israeli government take that you do not support”. Again, volumes. To give but an example, the official discrimination between Arab and Jewish education funding is a scandal.
I’m an Israeli. Just registered to post.
I am a patriotic Israeli. Nevertheless I am very sad about the inability of the parties to solve the IP conflict. There are large forces outside the parties control that seemingly do not want that to end. People like me are in a minority here, but not a huge one.
We are both paranoid and also have terrible enemies. That’s unfortunate.
I am all out for a Palestinian state. On the 1967 lines, maybe with real small adjustments. There are 2 kinds of Israelis who oppose it:
- People (mostly religious of type A) that think this is God-given land and we have no right to renounce to it.
- People that are afraid that the Palestinian state will be a mortal enemy and a forward base of Iranians, Al-Qaida, and/or anything else.
Group 2 is mostly influenced by the hatred against us of the surrounding Arab population - most of them not Palestinians.
Ah, and there are 2 more groups here. One is of type B religious (the ultra type, wearing black clothes and hats), some of them anti-Zionists, most being Zionist-agnostic. Second is Arab citizens, maybe 20% of the population. They surely support a Palestinian state, but most would prefer to stay Israeli.
So, back to it. In my view, if one supports Israel, one has to support the creation of a Palestinian state. Unfortunately, the only practical way to do it would be sending a few thousand American-European soldiers, in order to:
- “pry” that area from Israel,
Sorry, accidentally pressed Submit.
(continue)
- Protect the Jews remaining there from being immediately killed.
- Protect the Palestinians from Israeli posturing.
- Protect both parties from outside players (Iranian, etc)
This is a very small area (a little over 2,000 square miles) . Very easy to control militarily. No Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. I guess that most casualties will be from drunken driving.
And by the way, the craziest Israeli settlers are past Jewish-Americans, and the donors to the most extreme groups are American Evangelists, and some Jewish tycoons like Sheldon Adelson. And, yes, AIPAC is controlled by a tiny, quite crazy minority. A large majority of Jews in the US are liberal and vote Democrat, even the very rich ones.
My 2 cents
Do you think there’s realistic hope that Israel will be able to overcome this fundamentalist opposition? It seems that your country has had great difficulty in getting a lot of these people to hold down jobs and undertake other societal obligations (including military service), much less conceding that peace will require foregoing What God Wants. And with the “craziest” settlers being a small minority, where’s the will power to deal with them?
Why? What is untenable about the status quo and how would it be fixed by establishing a Palestinian state?
No - the fundamentalist opposition cannot be persuaded. Maybe similar to the US hard-core fundamentalists. Hey, they killed Rabin. It will have to be violent, unfortunately. The fundamentalist settlers are deeply unpopular in all population segments.
The jobs stuff is of the religious “type B”. Completely different. They are not the same type fundamentalist, they are more similar to the Amish. Actually they call the type A “stinking kippa”, its an alliteration on “knitted kippa” in hebrew.
The way is to sway the ones who refuse budging not because of religion, but because they are afraid of what will happen with a Palestinian state is built. It is quite certain that the Islamists (Hamas) will gain the power, them being better organized and less corrupt.
Nowadays the Hamas calls openly for fighting Israel to the end. Of course we have the military might to re-occupy the place afterwards, but then we’re back to square one.
It’s a mess. Even if one could start a peace process again, there is nothing better than a bus blowing up or a shooting in a mosque to bog things down again. Think N. Ireland. There must be some 3rd party intervention, maybe only political at first.
Welcome aboard, doubleminus.
You won’t believe how relieved I am to finally have an Israeli on the SDMB that I pretty much agree with everything on. I mean, I well know there are many like you, for I read any number of opinions such as yours in many a non-MSN site – so no, you are not the ‘tiny minority’ that many posters on this board make you (general “you”) out to be.
There’s not a thing you’ve written that I haven’t advocated for here in the past. Simple really: live and let live. But for that, I honestly hope you don’t get labeled a ‘self-hating Jew’ or insinuations in that vein. Need a thick skin to wrote what you did…but I suspect you already know that.
Best of luck to you, your country and ending the conflict. As you well said: IT CAN BE DONE. And you are certainly on the right track.
Look forward to hearing more from you.
You do realize that there’s nothing he’s said that hasn’t been echoed or posted by any number of your political opponents on the Dope? You might want to read for comprehension.
Well, as a start, they deserve one. Second, since morality is so passé, let’s talk realpolitik. What is the real choice ? 2 states, or one state with one man/one vote, or apartheid. Last 2 are, in my view, national suicide. The status quo in Gaza is perhaps tenable, it is a Hamas mini-state. The West Bank is sitting on a stuck pressure cooker, one can see it its explosion starting these days in slow motion.
Also, Israel needs an international-recognized border. If the Palestinians will be our enemies, well, it’s better they will be outside that border than inside, as it is now. It is acceptable to shoot at your enemy; it is unacceptable at population you control.
Now, to RedFury. Thanks for your kind words, but I’m not that optimistic, and in any case solving the conflict will take a long time. It is very probable that it will take multiple conflagrations, and possible an internal rift in Israel.
Being labelled a Jew-hater here is relatively common, and is part of the ordinary political discourse. We are very impolite. The ultra-Orthodox call “Nazis” the policemen that try to restrain them when they go on a rampage (over some obscure grievance, or just for fun). The discourse here is always heated and with very little political correctness. Burning Israeli flags is common in the Arab villages and among some ultra-orthodox.
There are also lots of things we can’t really understand in the American psyche. Like the gun debate, abortion stuff, creationism, gay in the military, parading family in elections and of course the unique American Sexuality. However, barring all this, the average Israeli is no less concerned regarding the US well-being than with the Israeli, and in the depth of their hearts there is always an American homunculus.
This is something I have trouble understanding about the Israeli psyche.
If the settlers are deeply unpopular, why do so many in your government seem to be scared to death of them and even find it difficult to eliminate blatantly illegal settlements?
If the troublemakers are mostly just a bunch of recent U.S. immigrants who are loathed by the natives, you’d think a crackdown would be easy to sell.
- He exaggerates the unpopularity.
- Altalena left a deep scar in the nation’s psyche.
Yeah. If the settlers were so unpopular, Naphtali Bennett wouldn’t be polling at 13 seats.
It’s more than a matter of popularity, though. It’s a matter of solidarity. It’s an essential component of the Israeli psyche that we may disagree, we may argue, but in the end, we all have to look after each other - because if we don’t stand together, we’ll die. That’s why most Israelis loathe the idea of using forces agasint their countrymen, and why the thought of abandoning Jews to Arab rule is utterly unthinkable. Add that to the Israeli stubbornness and independence-mindedness, and you’ve got a potent combination.
That’s also why your idea about a multinational force in the Territories is a bust, doubleminus. The first time the Israeli public sees some goyim forcing Jews out of their homes, or the first time the foreigners prevent Israel from responding to rocket attacks, all bets are off. The foreigners will be out of there, and Israel will come down on the Palestinians like a ton of Ytong blocks. And I even though I’m voting for Shelly this Tuesday, I’ll be right with them.