Can’t/won’t speak for anyone else, but for myself, no, can’t ever say say you do.
Loud and clear & Pit-worthy? Always. Just not the effort.
Cheer-up though. You are a self-proclaimed expert on all of your posts.
…
Hmmm…not to worry though, Tom and/or Marley are sure to follow with a mod-note/warning/ban.
Life on the edge. I almost feel young again.
All the best.
It must be exhausting to carry around all that wood for your cross all the time.
All you have to do to avoid being reprimanded is to refrain from off-topic threadshitting and personal attacks. That would not appear to be that difficult to do, as the vast majority of other posters carry it off for years.
However, if your need to feel young requires adolescent behavior, your desire for “martyrdom” may be granted.
Knock it off.
[ /Moderating ]
[QUOTE=Trinopus]
For my part, I would class them as sufficiently distinct. Not 100% distinct, but, rather, “apples and oranges” distinct. (Heck, apples and oranges aren’t 100% different…)
[/quote]
Fair enough.
Obviously I disagree, but for a different reason than I think people are attributing to me - the comparison is really about “what are historic irrational responses to one’s wartime fears? How will history view this mistaken response on Israel’s part?” And IMO it is an irrational response. Or probably better said - a mistaken and shortsighted one.
You really don’t think they both arise from the same place in the American collective psyche? That there’s a recurrent fear of “Others” that gets cyclically repeated in American public discourse (c.f the Irish in late 1800s, Italians after that).
I’ll give you that it isn’t a “straight up” comparison. But I never claimed mine was, either.
Thanks for that.
They raised a flag at the UN, so is Palestine a state?
Not yet.
Hewlett-Packard has a flag…
I don’t think it changes anything, I think that as far as the UN is concerned, it’s the Security Council which gets to decide whether or not to recognize an entity as a “state,” an the security council has not done so in this case.
But anyway, if the Palestinian Arabs really want worldwide recognition as a state, there’s something they could do right now to greatly improve their chances, which is to offer entry, residency, and citizenship to all Arabs of Palestinian descent everywhere in the world. That would go a long way towards convincing the Israeli public that the Palestinian Arabs want a state for legitimate and constructive reasons.
Hmmm… TL: DR Too long, did not read.
My concern is - really, where does Israel see things in 20 years? 50?
They just wasted 60+ Israeli lives to make a mess of Gaza, for what? One expression is “mow the lawn”, meaning they’ll have to rinse and repeat again in a few more years. They should have had their wake-up call. Each year the missiles go farther, get more accurate. Modern tech means the future missiles can be cruise rather than ballistic - you don’t think sympathizers with miles of middle east desert to play with, are not already devising guidance systems and low-flying home-made bombs? The missiles almost reached the airport and shut down flights to Israel. next round, what happens?
The demographic of Israel plus Palestine is that the Arab ethnics outnumber the Jewish citizens. The Arab ethnic proportion in Israel proper is growing, and Netenyahu cleverly made them amalgamate into one party that got a sizable chunk of the Knesset with his fear tactics in the last election. How long before that becomes a factor?
Keeping the Palestinians poor has the wrong effect. Poor people have nothing to lose; rich people have houses, cars, and all the other toys they worked so hard to get. If Israel wants peace, rather than to stick it to the Palestinians, they should let the Palestinian economy flourish instead of heavily restricting it. When things were relatively peaceful, they were more annoyed at their own government’s corruption. Unfortunately, that’s why Hamas won the elections there; because they were more honest.
The other thing is Egypt. Sisi has bought Israel another decade or so. How long before some form of democracy brings an Egyptian government that figures they more sympathetic to the Palestinians and opens the floodgates to Gaza and allows all sorts of undesirable results?
meanwhile, if they make it more difficult for anyone to rule Palestine, then Israel will have to absorb the cost of being the police force, with a large standing army patrolling the streets and dealing with a regular intifada every few years. That can’t be cheap for the economy. destroying the state means someone has to feed the population. That cost will fall again to Israel.
Similarly, one of these years there will be a US government with les sympathy for Israel and more willing to dictate terms for support, as Bush I famously did.
If things can’t go on this way… they won’t.
That’s unfortunate, because there are important facts in play you do not seem to be aware of. See below.
The percentage of Jewish births in Israel has been steadily growing for more than 10 years now. So if current trends continue there will be a Jewish majority there in 20 years and 50 years as well. Possibly even a bigger one than now.
To damage Hamas’ ability to strike at them and to deter future strikes.
Why exactly is this a problem? Some battles are never ending.
Sure, and each year Israel’s weaponry improves too. It sucks to be in an arms race, but the alternative is to re-occupy Gaza. Which Israel may very well decide to do if it becomes necessary for Israel’s security.
Unfortunately the Palestinian Arabs (as a group) are keeping themselves poor by focusing on their dream of destroying Israel as opposed to building themselves up.
And what will happen, in your view, if Israel continues on its present course?
Also, what specifically should Israel do at this point to improve the situation?
??
Very weird assertion, very weird indeed. of course 84.
of course since the Palestinians do not control either their borders or their residency, as this is totally controlled by the Israeli occupation authorities, they can only extend a theoretical citizenship…
It is hard to think that any such actions are reassuring anyway to the Israelis or have any meaning about undefined “legitimate” or “constructive” reasons. Perhaps the centrist parties out of power in the Israel could engage this but it is very laughable to think that a unilateral declaration would not be exploited by the hard right of the Israel with the barely disguised annexationist colonial agenda.
Let’s see - with the current efforts to stop free-loading Haredi and also force them to participate in the army - do you think the 5% birth rate for Haredim will continue long term? meanwhile, growth for Palestinians has only recently dropped, meaning a large phalanx of young people will begin reaching family age in the next generation. Projections for Palestine are even worse.
Because that’s worked so well up until now. Think about it - before the intifada, they were ruled by Israeli-drafted capos. A few rocks and rockets later, Israel has abandoned Gaza, given back the giant kibbutz that split Gaza in two and withdrawn those settlers, has stopped being the police for the west bank and Gaza, has handed back quite a few political prisoners until it reneged n that deal, and allowed its once mortal enemy to take over ruling the Swiss Cheese state of the West Bank.
Why the heck would the Palestinians stop now? They’re in it for the long haul. Their tactics are working. Every time Israel mistakenly thinks they are “teaching them a lesson” they garner more support worldwide for Palestine. Look at the heated reaction to the last set of bombing - the outpouring of criticism, the threats to recognize Palestine. Next time?
As we saw in the last go-round - the rockets don’t have to hit the airport, they only have to get close. Then, Israel has to stop every one, which they can’t always.
Re-occupy Gaza? That would be a serious mess. Take a lesson from Rhodesia. they won all the battles, but eventually could not afford the war. How many men would it take to occupy Gaza? it would be southern Lebanon all over again. How would they protect themselves? (after all, the biggest danger would be people dropping concrete chunks on their vehicles in the denser areas - Israel has thoughtfully provided large but movable concrete chunks on higher floors of buildings all over Gaza.)
Where do I see this going? Two ways -
Either rigid groups like Mr. Netanyahu’s party fail to compromise, and Israel descends into a chaos of violence and attempts foolhardy “punishments” until the economy collapses due to lack of resources to maintain the fight…
Or, commons sense reigns, the Likud coalition is tossed out by the more sensible left wing, and real negotiations follow. Israel will have to trade concessions for real peace. the longer it takes, the more expensive the concessions.
How do you figure that? The longer it takes, the more desperate the Palestinian Authority might be. There’s no obvious momentum in terms of peace negotiations.
(There’s also no possibility of acceptable concessions on either side, at this stage. Each side has an absolute minimum set of demands that the other side finds absolutely intolerable. Damn hard to find a “middle” in that.)
Jerusalem and admitting that Israel is a nation come to mind.
“the longer it takes, the more desperate…”???
The current Palestinian rulers, both Fatah and Hamas, revel in their martyr status. They have no problem keeping it going for a while. After all, the connected are getting rich off the corruption. The only way to get them out and a reasonable government installed would be to show that moderation and conciliation produces results and concessions. I don’t see that happening - on either side.
But like I said - Intifada works. They’ve driven the illegal Israeli settlements and the occupation force out of Gaza using mainly rocks, why shouldn’t they hope for the same result step by step in the west bank if Israel won’t bend.
Of course they won’t recognize Israel and its right to exist (oh, wait, Fatah tacitly does). That’s their only bargaining chip, and it can’t easily be taken back, and there’s no half-way. It will be the last card on the table.
I’m not sure what you mean by “5% birth rate for Haredim,” but I’m pretty confident that their high birth rate will continue, along with the high birth rate for modern orthodox, and even secular Jews.
Let me ask you this: Do you think the current trend of declining Arab fertility will continue? Do you think that the current trend where Jewish births as a percentage of the population are steadily increasing will continue?
I’m not sure what your point is here. Do you think that these concessions have been productive?
Also, can you specify the deal which Israel reneged on?
Perhaps, but it might be necessary. Besides, would it be that much messier than the previous occupation? Than the current occupation of Judea & Samaria?
When you use the word “punishment” who are you quoting? And please answer my question before: Why exactly is it a problem that Israel must go to war in Gaza every few years?
Also, are you aware that Israel’s economy has grown substantially since 1967 and continues to do so? A simple yes or no will do.
Exactly what concessions do you expect to result in peace? And why, in the past, have concessions failed?
By the way, I did an image search for “GDP versus time israel” and here is the first image I found among many:
Is anyone seriously contending that Israel is headed for economic disaster?
Edit: Note that this graph goes only to 2011. In recent years, Tel Aviv has emerged as one of the top startup hubs in the world.
Consider this:
Visibly Palestinian fertility has declined from previous levels - but still they out-breed Israelis… and the more fertile Israelis generally are the Arab ones.
Does it matter? Israel gave up on Gaza and closed the kibbutz that had stolen what, about 1/4 of the total area of Gaza. They gave the land back. Whether Israel gets a benefit from this or not, from the Palestinian perspective - it worked. Why would they stop applying pressure in the only ways they know how?
I suppose Israel’s direct benefit was that they no longer needed the large number of troops and equipment to maintain the perimeter around that farm.
Punishment? Do I need to be quoting? You mean like bulldozing a house if one of the former inhabitants commits a violent act against Israel? Or, in the case of the recent incident where the fellow drove through a crowd at the tram stop, they couldn’t exactly bulldoze one 3rd-floor flat, so they just went in with sledgehammers and destroyed as much as they possibly could? Or the recent video that shows a Palestinian boy already subdued on the ground and someone (settler? Plainclothed police?) puts a pistol against his leg and shoots? refusing building permits? Expropriating land?
Why is it a problem if Israel has to go to war every few years? Maybe that question is better asked of the families of the 60-plus soldiers killed in the last go-round.
So why not answer my questions?
They are very simple, really:
Do you think the current trend of declining Arab fertility will continue?
Do you think that the current trend where Jewish births as a percentage of the population are steadily increasing will continue?
Two very simple questions. Why are you evading them?
I think it does. But if you think it does not matter, let’s agree for the sake of argument that Israeli concessions generally have not been productive for Israel. Okay?
Stolen from whom? And how did that person come to own it?
I’m not sure, but you seem to be arguing that Israel needs to make more concessions not less, for it’s own benefit. Did I misunderstand you?
Well you put the word in quotes. I would like to know who you were quoting. Were you quoting anyone at all?
Why do American cities need to have police forces constantly trying to apprehend criminals? Maybe that should question should be asked of the families of cops who died in the line of duty?
Anyway, please answer my questions from before:
Can you specify the deal that Israel reneged on?
If Israel re-occupies Gaza, do you expect it will be much messier than the current occupation of Judea and Samaria? What about the previous occupation of Gaza? If so, why?
Are you aware that Israel’s economy has grown substantially since 1967 and continues to do so? A simple yes or no will do?
Exactly what concessions by Israel do you expect to result in peace?
Well, this has gone to sheol, as these usually do. 
Jehannum!