So wtf is cultural appropriation exactly?

[Banquet_Bear]

@Scumpup

“qft. +1” is sacred to my culture. We don’t elaborate on it to outsiders.

…I’ll take that as a concession: concession accepted.

[Scumpup]

@Banquet_Bear

…I’ll take that as a concession: concession accepted.

You can take it however you wish, outsider. Your ways are not ours and we want to keep it that way.

[John_Stamos_Left_Ear]

@Scumpup

You can take it however you wish, outsider. Your ways are not ours and we want to keep it that way.

Then maybe you shouldn’t post.

[octopus]

@Banquet_Bear

…you are at an impasse: not me. My position has been consistent throughout this thread. Indigenous intellectual property is a very important thing for indigenous people. Intellectual property is regarded differently by most indigenous cultures: there is less value on the individual and a greater emphasis on the collective. There (by and large) are no legal protections for indigenous IP around the world. The only thing that indigenous people can do to enforce their IP is to educate, to inform, to ask, and (in the worse case scenarios) apply pressure through social media if need be. My point in this thread has never been to argue that this should change. It has been to inform. To help understand the difference in paradigm. The difference is so big its instructive to understand it: and it disappoints me that you haven’t put any effort into trying to understand the differences.

If you want to create your own haka: then fucking go for it. I only ask that you do your due diligence: that you contact the appropriate people and you try and make it as authentic and as true to the spirit of the haka as you can. I hope that you make the best haka ever. But we can’t force people to do that and if people decide to be dicks about it then there really isn’t much we can do except to get very loud. And by and large this method has been quite effective.

This is a recent advertisement in Germany. A few people were outraged. But the company did the right thing. They consulted experts: this wasn’t a mockery, it was a completely new invention and I thought it was fucking awesome, and I wasn’t alone in thinking that. This here? Fucking awesome. This here? Fucking awesome. Read the comments.

You’ve completely misunderstood my position here. Complete and utterly gotten things wrong. As I said in my very first post here: “Cultural appropriation, simply put, is the use of cultural intellectual property without permission of the respective tribe/culture.” Simply deciding you are going to create your own haka in itself is not appropriation. If you contact local iwi, work in consultation with experts, and then create something amazing and magical then you haven’t appropriated our culture at all.

But if you don’t do that. Then guess what? Appropriation. And the punishment for that? You are going to get a lot of Kiwi’s riled up. They will do this. And that’s really about it.

Isn’t using social media cultural appropriation?

[Chimera]

@John_Stamos_Left_Ear

I have never thought “that’s the way it’s always been done” to be a good excuse for anything.

Humans learn and adapt. It is what we do. Adopting good ideas from other sources allows us to adapt to new threats or grow and create in different ways.

I have a personal saying: Any ideology that requires Humans to not be Humans is doomed to failure.

Attempting to freeze Human cultures as they are right now and declaring that no one can adapt something from another culture because it is “theft” is outright absurd and contrary to Human Nature.

[Bone]

@Banquet_Bear

Do you think I was trying to shut down discussion? I think that is a completely unfair allegation. This is the straight dope. We are in great debates. I’m holding the minority opinion. I’ve been here since 2002. I’ve never seen a single poster with the super-power to magically shut down discussion. Do you think I have that super power? I’m flattered: but I don’t think that’s true.

I don’t think you were trying to shut down discussion - on the contrary I think you’ve done an excellent job in explaining your position and I’m generally pretty hostile to the idea of cultural appropriation. Thank you for sharing how the idea is viewed in your culture - very informative.

[Scumpup]

@John_Stamos_Left_Ear

Then maybe you shouldn’t post.

Or…and I know this is crazy talk…you could just not read my posts. Then we both win.

[Bone]

@John_Stamos_Left_Ear

Then maybe you shouldn’t post.

@Scumpup

Or…and I know this is crazy talk…you could just not read my posts. Then we both win.

Both of you dial it back. None of this is helpful and it can only serve to agitate.

[/moderating]

[drewder]

@Banquet_Bear

…you live in a world where “asking permission to utilize aspects of someone else’s culture” isn’t mandatory. Its a request. Its about being polite. But you can pretty much ignore the request if you like.

In New Zealand the first step would be to read the guidelines at IPONZ. They acknowledge that their can be difficulties in finding the right person to grant permission. But the first step would be to approach the relevant Māori elders or iwi representatives from the iwi or hapu whose IP you were interested in using.

I don’t quite understand how do the Māori elders have any more right to ownership than the Greek government has rights to the Iliad or the Greek pantheon.

[Latro]

@drewder

I don’t quite understand how do the Māori elders have any more right to ownership than the Greek government has rights to the Iliad or the Greek pantheon.

I think he means that it is not about rights. You can do as you please but that you will come off as an ignorant clown, if you do not spend a bit of research and effort in that which you are “appropriating”.

[Martini_Enfield]

@drewder

I don’t quite understand how do the Māori elders have any more right to ownership than the Greek government has rights to the Iliad or the Greek pantheon.

They don’t, basically. I’m a New Zealander and I wouldn’t ask Maori eldiers for permission to use a traditional design in something. However, if a specific Maori artist had created a unique, traditionally-inspired design that I wanted to use then I’d happily ask that specific person for permission to use their design.

The other thing is it’s important to remember the Maori were literally a stone age technology-level tribe when the British showed up. The Maori “appropriated” a huge swathe of British cultural & technological aspects, including firearms, European military tactics, clothing, trade concepts, and even the Latin alphabet (written Maori didn’t exist until British missionaries created the language for printing Bibles and doing religious work).

I don’t think Mr Bear would think it fair that Maori ask permission to use electricity or cars or roads or any technology that didn’t exist c.1800, or wear Western clothes or paint in the same style as Turner or Picasso.

[Clothahump]

@Damuri_Ajashi

For some reason I have been running into this concept a shitload over the last few days. I have a hard time getting outraged over white dudes teaching Tae Kwon Do

Well, I’m quite glad to hear that!

[Ale]

@Martini_Enfield

They don’t, basically. I’m a New Zealander and I wouldn’t ask Maori eldiers for permission to use a traditional design in something. However, if a specific Maori artist had created a unique, traditionally-inspired design that I wanted to use then I’d happily ask that specific person for permission to use their design.

The other thing is it’s important to remember the Maori were literally a stone age technology-level tribe when the British showed up. The Maori “appropriated” a huge swathe of British cultural & technological aspects, including firearms, European military tactics, clothing, trade concepts, and even the Latin alphabet (written Maori didn’t exist until British missionaries created the language for printing Bibles and doing religious work).

I don’t think Mr Bear would think it fair that Maori ask permission to use electricity or cars or roads or any technology that didn’t exist c.1800, or wear Western clothes or paint in the same style as Turner or Picasso.

Unless the Maori came into existence by spontaneous generation they too have “appropriated” culture from others.
The whole “Cultural Appropriation” idea is an untenable case of Special Pleading.

[Martini_Enfield]

@Ale

Unless the Maori came into existence by spontaneous generation they too have “appropriated” culture from others.
The whole “Cultural Appropriation” idea is an untenable case of Special Pleading.

It’s regarded as more or less common knowledge in NZ that Maori culture is descended somewhere along the line from Hawaii, and while I’m not an expert, I would suggest there’s almost certainly been some incorporation of Samoan and Tongan culture in NZ as well.

[Banquet_Bear]

@Martini_Enfield

They don’t, basically. I’m a New Zealander and I wouldn’t ask Maori eldiers for permission to use a traditional design in something.

…it doesn’t surprise me in the least that you would not only approve of cultural appropriation, but you would happily culturally appropriate. As I’ve said all thread: if that is what you want to do, then go for it. Its your privilege to do so: so why not take advantage of it?

The other thing is it’s important to remember the Maori were literally a stone age technology-level tribe when the British showed up. The Maori “appropriated” a huge swathe of British cultural & technological aspects, including firearms, European military tactics, clothing, trade concepts, and even the Latin alphabet (written Maori didn’t exist until British missionaries created the language for printing Bibles and doing religious work).

Ah yes. Colonization. That’s a whole different thread. I’m glad you used quotes around “appropriated”: because you are not using the word appropriated in a way that is commonly understood. Firearms weren’t appropriated. They were bought, or traded, or gifted. The Latin alphabet wasn’t appropriated. It was taught and gifted by the missionaries because they wanted to “save our souls.” Nothing was taken without permission.

I don’t think Mr Bear would think it fair that Maori ask permission to use electricity or cars or roads or any technology that didn’t exist c.1800, or wear Western clothes or paint in the same style as Turner or Picasso.

But I do have to ask permission to use electricity. Not only do I have to ask permission: but I have to pay to be able to use it. Mr/Mrs/Miss/Ms Enfield: did you steal your car? Because I didn’t steal mine. I paid money for my car. If you appropriated your car then that’s on you. But that isn’t what I did. Somebody had a car for sale. And I offered them money in exchange for the car: so they gave me the car. I’m perfectly happy to give up that car on a couple of conditions: firstly stop trying to sell me a car, and secondly stop taking my money.

I think you should start with first understanding what the word appropriation actually means. Then you might stop mis-applying it to situations where it doesn’t apply.

[Banquet_Bear]

@Ale

The whole “Cultural Appropriation” idea is an untenable case of Special Pleading.

…here are the All-Blacks performing the haka again: this time being lead by the very white and very non-Maori Richie McCaw.

This isn’t just Maori culture on display. Its New Zealand culture. There is no special pleading going on. Maori culture, just like every culture, contains aspects of other cultures. And New Zealand culture has adopted many aspects of Maori culture, with the blessing of Maori people. You’ve simply got things wrong.

[Banquet_Bear]

@Bone

I don’t think you were trying to shut down discussion - on the contrary I think you’ve done an excellent job in explaining your position and I’m generally pretty hostile to the idea of cultural appropriation. Thank you for sharing how the idea is viewed in your culture - very informative.

…cheers.

[Martini_Enfield]

@Banquet_Bear

…it doesn’t surprise me in the least that you would not only approve of cultural appropriation, but you would happily culturally appropriate. As I’ve said all thread: if that is what you want to do, then go for it. Its your privilege to do so: so why not take advantage of it?

Oh, I do. And I have no problem with doing it myself, or anyone else doing it. If you want to dress like a Chinese Mandarin or in Lederhosen or a Dhoti then knock yourself out.

But I do have to ask permission to use electricity. Not only do I have to ask permission: but I have to pay to be able to use it.

Not the same thing. There’s nothing (beyond the economic factors) stopping you from making your own electricity. Many people do that anyway, via solar panels. What you’re paying for is the right to access electricity generated and provided from the grid owned/maintained by your power company. No-one is going to say you’re not allowed to use electricity because that’s a White People Thing.

And then, if we might Inception-ise this conversation a bit more, where’s the line between Maori Culture and New Zealand Culture? If all Maori culture is, by extension, NZ culture then I, Captain Whitey, should be completely morally clear in your eyes if I want to perform a Haka, write fictional stories about Tane, or wear gigantic fuck-off greenstone Tikis around my neck, right?

[Banquet_Bear]

Not the same thing.

…not the same thing as what? I do have to ask permission to have power. That is undisputed.

There’s nothing (beyond the economic factors) stopping you from making your own electricity. Many people do that anyway, via solar panels. What you’re paying for is the right to access electricity generated and provided from the grid owned/maintained by your power company. No-one is going to say you’re not allowed to use electricity because that’s a White People Thing.

The “white people” said to me “do you want power? You can have it if you pay for it.”

Why would I make my own power when “white people” are perfectly willing to take my money to give me power? Where is the appropriation here? This isn’t a trick question.

Paying for a service isn’t appropriation. Unless you think that my money isn’t as good as yours. Is that what you think?

And then, if we might Inception-ise this conversation a bit more, where’s the line between Maori Culture and New Zealand Culture? If all Maori culture is, by extension, NZ culture then I, Captain Whitey, should be completely morally clear in your eyes if I want to perform a Haka, write fictional stories about Tane, or wear gigantic fuck-off greenstone Tikis around my neck, right?

Have you read my posts in this thread?

How many times do you want me to say “fuck yes: you can do what the fuck you like” before you understand that yes: as far as I am concerned, you can do whatever the fuck you like? I think I’ve had this identical conversation with at least three other people in this thread. I’ve just posted a youtube video of “Captain Whitey” performing the haka: and it was fucking awesome. I’ve shown videos of Japanese students performing the haka, and they were fucking amazing. I think Disney did a fantastic job with Moana, and I thought their interpretation of Maui was brilliant. So with the greatest of respects: what the fuck are you going on about?

Do we really have to do it all over again? Can you at the very least read what I’ve written in this thread and not just assume what my position is?

[Okrahoma]

Coming into the thread late, the whole “cultural appropriation” thing is a fairly ho-hum “intellectual property” argument. Some IP is recognized and protected by law. Some isn’t. But it happens that recognized and protected IP is complete and utter BS (some software/UI patents, I’m looking at you). Much more so for “cultural IP” - most of it is BS.

And of course the recreational outrage artists jumping up and down about some particular BS “cultural IP” matter just taint the whole “cultural appropriation” thing as ridiculous. Even if on a (very) rare occasion it may be a legitimate gripe.