So wtf is cultural appropriation exactly?

[PatrickLondon]

@IvoryTowerDenizen

I disagree. The question that was asked is why is it not ok for the dominant culture to appropriate others, but it’s not big deal if the dominant culture itself is appropriated (such as using Xian imagery in pop culture).

It’s about the power the default culture has in setting cultural norms and standards. The dominant culture is not at risk to be obliterated, marginalized, or to disappear, simply because it’s dominant. By taking the culture of others and having the systemic power to distribute and use it, society doesn’t recognize the original ownership and meaning.

Quite. And who ends up with the copyright and the profits is another part of it too.

[TriPolar]

@IvoryTowerDenizen

I disagree. The question that was asked is why is it not ok for the dominant culture to appropriate others, but it’s not big deal if the dominant culture itself is appropriated (such as using Xian imagery in pop culture).

It’s about the power the default culture has in setting cultural norms and standards. The dominant culture is not at risk to be obliterated, marginalized, or to disappear, simply because it’s dominant. By taking the culture of others and having the systemic power to distribute and use it, society doesn’t recognize the original ownership and meaning.

Which cultures were obliterated, marginalized, and/or disappeared as a result of someone copying their culture? Quite the opposite is what occurs. They don’t really care about their cultures that much, they only care that they aren’t special anymore. Just like someone who thinks they’re special because they listen to a band that makes some cool T-shirts that everyone wants.

[Ramira]

@Scumpup

Why are we outraged on behalf of Polynesians, Native Americans, et. al. when things that have religious symbolism to them are used frivolously in pop culture? Why is it okay to use Xian iconography frivolously, even mockingly, but these other religions are entitled to dignity and respect?

The American conservative christians seem to get themselves up in outrage but it is in internal to your own culture so it does not fit the concept.

Of course there is not any exclusivity in the idea, very strange objection…

[Novelty_Bobble]

@IvoryTowerDenizen

It’s about the power the default culture has in setting cultural norms and standards. The dominant culture is not at risk to be obliterated, marginalized, or to disappear, simply because it’s dominant. By taking the culture of others and having the systemic power to distribute and use it, society doesn’t recognize the original ownership and meaning.

I’ve never understood this reasoning. How does a dominant culture copying another culture obliterate the latter culture?

[PatrickLondon]

@Novelty_Bobble

I’ve never understood this reasoning. How does a dominant culture copying another culture obliterate the latter culture?

Might have been better phrased as “assuming ownership” - who gets to say what’s “authentic”, who uses it as temporary decoration vs. who lives in it as part of their daily life.

[TriPolar]

@PatrickLondon

Might have been better phrased as “assuming ownership” - who gets to say what’s “authentic”, who uses it as temporary decoration vs. who lives in it as part of their daily life.

What difference does that make? If you care about your culture you keep practicing it and you don’t care about what others are doing in their culture.

[IvoryTowerDenizen]

@Novelty_Bobble

I’ve never understood this reasoning. How does a dominant culture copying another culture obliterate the latter culture?

Because the control over the iconography shifts from the original population to the dominant culture and the importance and expression of it then changes. It also directly impacts the way the dominant culture views and respects the other cultures if they don’t even realize things they value came from them originally, and wasn’t created by their own culture.

Not very example of appropriation leads to this of course.

[RickJay]

@asahi

Moreover, those groups like Public Enemy, who used to be identified as the real messengers in the rap field and the real reports of what was happening in black America find that they’re no longer important. Sony doesn’t want to sign them to contracts. They’d rather sign a group of suburban white teenagers who urge people to ‘rock yo body’.

It’s just me being picky, but you cannot seriously tell me that you think the Backstreet Boys took Public Enemy’s place. Those acts aren’t in the same market at all.

The Backstreet Boys replaced the New Kids on the Block. Everyone knows that. (The Backstreet Boys were then replaced by N’Sync.)

[Scumpup]

@Ramira

The American conservative christians seem to get themselves up in outrage but it is in internal to your own culture so it does not fit the concept.

Of course there is not any exclusivity in the idea, very strange objection…

Yes, and when they do, they get mocked and shouted down…especially at places like the SDMB. Does the same thing happen to Polynesians, native Americans, etc.?

[Ramira]

@Scumpup

Yes, and when they do, they get mocked and shouted down…especially at places like the SDMB. Does the same thing happen to Polynesians, native Americans, etc.?

And the SJW are being mocked here too.

So? Or this is simply “me too” complaining in the fashioin like my small children?

Otherwise, the conservative christians in the USA do not seem to lack for the power in the places they are in the majority - the concept here under the discussion does not match their case - it is a different idea.

I neither defend nor support but it indeed a completely different concept internal to the culture, not external to it.

[k9bfriender]

@Martini_Enfield

Unfortunately, that’s the way a lot of people want the world to be - you’re not allowed to be successful if it hurts anyone’s feelings in the process.

Not really, but you shouldn’t be all that proud of being successful when it required harming others.

To go back thousands of years to when human life was cheap and meaningless, and use the actions of people to justify actions of people who are living in modern day is a bit of a stretch.

[Slash1972]

So can I swear my NWA shirt or not?

[Flyer]

@Budget_Player_Cadet

I’m sure you do. But it’s not for nothing that this is a common cultural meme. See also: the anger over “fake geek girls”, which, while incredibly stupid for unrelated or tangential reasons, points to a similar problem.

Yes, you don’t care about the erasure of native American culture. But then again, I doubt you’re native American, and what matters here is not your feelings. You’re not the person whose culture is being dissolved and reformed by the same dominant majority that previously destroyed your culture’s way of life.

There is a power dynamic at play here. That’s the problem. Native Americans can’t just turn around and do exactly the same thing. They don’t have the power. They also can’t just keep their own culture and not assimilate to the dominant culture - it’s telling that when you google “native American suspended for speaking native language” you come up with several cases. So on one hand they are forced to assimilate, and on the other hand, their culture is taken from them.

Note the shift in power dynamic here. People don’t just choose to assimilate, they have to assimilate. African-Americans have to abandon their dialects and styles to assimilate into (white) professional culture. Native Americans are forced to abandon their old ways of living. Assimilation is not the same thing as appropriation.

You are forgetting – or, (much more likely) ignoring – that native American culture IS the dominant culture here in America.

The vast majority of native Americans are Caucasian, and they grow up speaking English.

Now, if you are misusing language, so that by “native Americans” you mean American Indians, instead of meaning anybody who is born in America, then you might possibly have half a point in some of the things you said.

[Slash1972]

@Flyer

Now, if you are misusing language, so that by “native Americans” you mean American Indians, instead of meaning anybody who is born in America, then you might possibly have half a point in some of the things you said.

Are you serious with this? :dubious:

[DSeid]

As expressed in a previous thread I personally get very confused over what is and is not “cultural appropriation”* but I can very clearly understand why it may be offensive to members of a minority culture with relatively less societal power to have members of the more dominant group use meaningful items and symbols of their culture in ways that are minimally disrespectful (even out of simple ignorance) to outright mocking.

Of course the relative power dynamic built into the society is part of that. As is the presence or absence of honest respect to even clear disrespect accorded to the culture of origin.
*Versus say “inspired by”, “influenced by”, “cultural cross pollination”, or a result of “cultural fusion” … all of which strike me as desired things and how new often happens.

[DSeid]

@Slash1972

Are you serious with this? :dubious:

It’s gotta be a whoosh.

[Darren_Garrison]

@k9bfriender

Not really, but you shouldn’t be all that proud of being successful when it required harming others.

There are a very large number of situations where being successful means “harming” others. Two people are up for a promotion at a job–one gets it, the other doesn’t. The one who gets it gets an office with a view and a bigger paycheck, the one who doesn’t is harmed by staying in a cubicle with smaller paycheck and feels really disappointed about not getting the promotion. Should the one that gets the job not feel proud of their success because the other guy is had hurt feelings and crushed dreams?

All this complaining about cultural appropriation is protectionism by people who want to maintain a status quo. It happens all the time–the traveling medicine man resents losing out to the family pharmacy. The owner of the family pharmacy resents losing out to the regional pharmacy chain. The owners of the regional pharmacy chain resent losing out to the national pharmacy chain. The owners of the national pharmacy chain resent losing out to Wal-Mart pharmacies. The Wal-Mart owners may eventually resent losing out to on-line drug sales. On-line drug sellers may eventually resent losing out to open-source home drug printers/replicators. Everybody is fine with a change that brings them to the top, but then wants things to remain the same forever after.

No matter how many artificial market protections you put in place–no matter how high you Build That Wall around an idea to keep changes at bay, sooner or later people are going to stop using buggy whips. And sooner or later every culture is changed, assimilated, diluted, mutated, subsumed, and otherwise evolved until it is no longer recognizable. That is the way it always has been, and that is the way it always will be.

[Novelty_Bobble]

@IvoryTowerDenizen

Because the control over the iconography shifts from the original population to the dominant culture and the importance and expression of it then changes. It also directly impacts the way the dominant culture views and respects the other cultures if they don’t even realize things they value came from them originally, and wasn’t created by their own culture. .

That’s a lot of words, most of them I recognise but I can’t grasp the meaning of the whole thing. The first sentence I think I understand and I reckon your premise fails at that first hurdle.

How does “control” of the iconography (don’t know what you mean by that) shift from the original population to the dominant culture? And what do you actually mean by “control”. Are you saying that the dominant culture stops the original population from using or valuing the…whatever? Do you have any examples of this happening?

[DSeid]

@Darren_Garrison

… All this complaining about cultural appropriation is protectionism by people who want to maintain a status quo. …

That’s a very … novel … perspective.

Perhaps more accurately the status quo in most societies is that the dominant culture owns all ideas and is in charge of deciding what is and what is not offensive.

Making the charge of “cultural appropriation” is a way to fight against that status quo, and reflexive dismissal of the complete concept is defending that status quo. Stated as someone who believes that the value of cultural mishmoshing is huge and is in fact the greatest strength of the American hodgepodge stew experiment.

[TriPolar]

@Darren_Garrison

There are a very large number of situations where being successful means “harming” others. Two people are up for a promotion at a job–one gets it, the other doesn’t. The one who gets it gets an office with a view and a bigger paycheck, the one who doesn’t is harmed by staying in a cubicle with smaller paycheck and feels really disappointed about not getting the promotion. Should the one that gets the job not feel proud of their success because the other guy is had hurt feelings and crushed dreams?

First, I agree with the rest of your post. Second, not the best comparison.

The one who doesn’t get the promotion hasn’t been harmed in any way. The one who does get the promotion has not taken any actions that can be causally connected to any possible harm to the other party had they actually been harmed. If the promoted employee had been selected because he was imitating the other one it might be a comparable situation, however even then if what he was doing was wrong it would have to be attributed to his deliberate intent to unfairly get the new position or at a willful disregard for the consequences of what is otherwise a perfectly legitimate act.

I only bring this up because the reason it’s hard to find analogies for the matter in question here is because the concept of cultural appropriation is irrational to begin with. It is simply an appeal to emotion that might even be justified in some situations but has been appropriated by others to achieve some goal. I don’t really know what that goal is, I’d might be sympathetic to them sometimes, but not because of cultural appropriation. And I even understand that when someone feels that a dominating cultural has harmed them and their families over generations and sees the use of cultural copying as putting salt in the wound, but which is another argument altogether, but if we make up a right to cultural ownership that is used as the justification for this irrational concept than we will soon put an end to creative enterprise.