I think you have it baclwards in regard to Chanukah. It was Jews who elevated it so they had a special day in the time period of Christmas. It was kinda unfair that some Jewish kids werent getting Christmas presents.
If it is devalued then surely it is only for the dominant culture who don’t hold it to be “sacred” in any way in the first place. Why would the widespread use devalue it for the originators?
And how would it make it more difficult for the original culture to practice?
I’m sorry but I’m not familiar at all with what any of that means. Something to do with Judaism but I don’t know any jewish people or enough about the faith for that example to be meaningful to me.
A PH is a reward for a certain act that everyone recognizes. A culture is theoretical and not everyone in any culture agrees exactly with what it is. And a concept like Native American culture is even more ridiculous because there was never any single NA culture but thousands of different ones that stole/borrowed from each other. Especially in a world dominated by mass media and global communication, culture that doesnt adapt will die.
I think I see some confusion here. Cultural appropriation isn’t illegal. It’s jerkish. When (legitimate) cultural appropriation occurs, the person whose sacred bowl you’re selling as mass-produced ashtrays steps up and says, “Hey you jerk! Stop using my sacred bowl pattern to make ashtrays!” And then you either say, “Oh, sorry, I’ll stop now,” or you’ll say “Ha ha! Fuck you! I can do anything I want and you can’t stop me! Neener neener!” And then your customers will either be like “Ew, what a jerk,” and boycott you, or they’ll be like “Hey, yeah! We hate that minority too! MURDER HIM and take his ACTUAL sacred bowls for ashtrays!!!”
This can play out a lot of ways, is what I’m saying. But the upshot of it is that a person who is perpetrating cultural appropriation is, perhaps inadvertently, being a jerk. And if they’re doing it advertently, then they’re probably an asshole.
Now, I did say I was talking about ‘legitimate’ cultural appropriation. Illegitimate cultural appropriation is when the person whose culture is being mimicked is totally cool with it. When the native licenses his bowl pattern to you, you sell it, some hypersensitive yahoo gets offended on the (unoffended) minority’s behalf and kickstarts the accusations of assholery and boycotts and whatever for no real reason. This happens now and then. It’s unfortunate. But it doesn’t lessen the reality of actual appropriation and cases of actual offended people any.
Let’s Godwinize the thread by talking about the worst case of “cultural appropriation” ever: Hitler took what had been a symbol of peace for thousands of cultures and religions across the world for thousands of years, and overnight he turned it into a symbol of genocide and hatred. That sucks for those guys.
On the other hand, Hindus and Buddhists and Navajo, etc, still use the swastika however and wherever they want.
And honestly, if that’s what comes to mind when you think about what made the Nazis bad, you’ve got some seriously messed up priorities. The genocide and world war is what made the Nazis bad guys, and the fact that people don’t like swastikas anymore is just an irksome side effect.
And as far as I can tell, that’s what’s going on here. People rightly resent that they were enslaved, segregated, red-lined, genocided and beaten down for hundreds of years by white people, but they can’t easily complain about evils perpetrated by those who are now dead. So they focus their anger on college kids wearing headdresses and eating empanadas instead.
It’s just a deflection, but one we should pay attention to, because whether the target of the anger deserves it or not, the anger isn’t going away.
When they first designed the cafeteria at the 9/11 memorial, the plan was to create a menu based on “American comfort food”.
This did not sit well with people. It felt to many like a very uncomfortable packaging of a very intense, heavy, complex concept.
That is the feeling being discussed. It’s not that people were against a cafeteria or against mac and cheese. But the concept of a commercial fast food joint directly referencing one of our most sensitive national tragedies felt inappropriate.
I don’t think it’s helpful to think of cultural appropriation as a category, as if things are or are not appropriated. It’s instead a conversation, where people are going to have a range of feelings. And that conversation is really the thing that people are mostly looking for, rather than a list of things that are off limits.
I’m not sure I understand this. I will accept that the elevation of Hanukkah is a function of it being a holiday close to a major Christian holiday. But the inclusion of Hanukkah in Christmas celebrations isn’t to “appropriate” it has a Christian holiday. It’s an attempt to be inclusive (or, at least, to avoid establishment clause issues when you put up your creche).
I’m not sure I agree that Christians made Hanukkah important nor am I aware of any Christian thinking that Hanukkah is more important that it is because it is close to Christmas. But, even accepting that’s true, I don’t see the appropriation; no one is playing dreidel on Christmas. At worst, outside pressures are changing the ways that Jews practice Judaism. Maybe that’s good; maybe it’s bad. But how is it appropriation?
(Contrast that with the clearest example of appropriation of Jewish symbolism that I know: the explicit adoption of the Jewish Nazirite tradition by the Rastafari).
Miffed why? Why would veterans care what idiot 20 something hipsters do? I’m a veteran, and I wouldn’t care a single iota.
And if the 98 want to hold it at the home of the 2 who do not want the banquet held at their home, just tough noogies for them?
And fox news complains whenever Santa is portrayed as black, and christians complain whenever jesus is portrayed as black.
And this is a different form of cultural appropriation that is far more acceptable. A weaker demographic picking up the culture habits of a stronger. This has been happening since forever, where the poor or marginalized look up to the wealthy and powerful and try to emulate them. This is the impetus behind virtually all fashion.
It does not physically stop them, but it most certainly cheapens their culture.
It’s hard to empathize with if you do not hold anything sacred yourself, but it’s not that hard to understand. Just look at christians getting upset whenever the Jesus is used in a disrespectful way. I don’t have all that much that is sacred to me, and I don’t know that I would be all that upset if anything from my life were appropriated, but I cannot make that judgement for everyone.
So, you do admit that you would be upset about that appropriation of you image.
So, why do you not understand others being upset about appropriation of their arts or culture?
No one is saying it is illegal, or that there should be a legal recourse, that’s just a strawman of your own creation. What we are saying is that if you know that doing something is going to upset people, and the only benefit you get out of it is a laugh, and maybe the knowledge that you have upset people, then you need to be quite a bit of an asshole to do so.
Cultural appropriation is not complete until the dominate culture explains to the minority cultures why it is not harming them.
That’s actually exactly what he said, I wouldn’t say he had it backwards. That jewish families chose to give presents at hanukkah, because of the expectation created by christmas.
I’m having a hard time determining exactly how this is Cultural Appropriation. Unless you mean Jewish families were appropriating the gift-giving culture of Christmas. Is that what you mean?
I think you are very much in the minority on that attitude.
I am not a vet, and I would find someone “stealing valor” to be in very bad taste, even if not personally offended.
As ITD said, it is one of the effects of cultural appropriation, not cultural appropriation itself.
It isn’t, it is Cultural Imperialism. Anything adopted by a larger culture from a smaller culture is Cultural Appropriation and is Bad. Anything adopted by a smaller culture from a larger culture is Cultural Imperialism and is Bad. The takeaway is that the majority culture is always, always the bad guy and the smaller culture is always, always a victim.
I see. So you, as a non-vet, are trying to tell me, an actual vet, what I should be offended about? :dubious:
Also, wearing a purple heart nose ring is not “stealing valor”
Looks like the Jewish Families were appropriating Christian culture by giving gifts at Christmas.
The fact that you don’t care about something doesn’t substantiate the idea that other people don’t or shouldn’t care about something, despite the fact that the statement is usually used that way.
I mean, personally I don’t care if you get socked in the face. But I bet you do, and my own sociopathic apathy towards your pain doesn’t invalidate your experience one bit.
I’m sorry but are you a veteran?
I’m sorry but what the fuck does that have to do with literally anything I’ve said? The only time I referred to myself in my post was to call myself a sociopath. Are you attempting to collect data associating sociopathy with the military?
Nope, not at all. Just saying that many of your fellow vets do get upset about it. Are you trying to tell them, actual vets, not to be offended?
Also mentioning, in passing, that I find it in bad taste.
Well, no, that’s more like “mocking valor”.
Which, as I pointed out upthread, is actually just fine. A weaker demographic copying the culture of the larger stronger one is pretty much been with us throughout history. The question is whether that culture did so on it’s own, or was more or less required to, in order to achieve the expectations placed by the dominate culture.
No one said you can’t be hurt by it. But that doesn’t make it cultural appropriation.
The first is Christians reading their own holy book and interpreting it differently than you, and, because they are the dominant culture, you find it hard to find your stuff. They aren’t appropriating anything, but interpreting their own Scriptures, which they have just as much a right to, since they started as a Jewish cult.
I mean, I guess the second one could be, if Christians are celebrating and misleading people about it. But I’m not sure it’s really up to Christians doing it. I mean, Christmas wasn’t even an important holiday if you go back far enough, but having a Winter Solstice party made it in one.
I’m not at all saying you can’t hurt by this. But I don’t really see how either one can be laid at the feet of Christians doing something wrong. It’s not the same as taking sacred stuff you have no connection with and making it trivial. That’s cultural appropriation.