Soccer rules question on handball

[I_Love_Me_Vol.I]

@RobDog

Good example of (legal) shoulder control here from Luis Suarez:

https://youtu.be/rIjS70QzLBw

Go to the 2min 37sec mark and watch in real-time followed by slow motion replay.

That is a great example.

It’s maybe patting myself on the back a bit but, that’s what I was referring to in my last post when I (somewhat generalizing) said that a legal play with a shoulder will almost definitely knock the ball up a bit then drop to your feet. Whereas an illegal shoulder play (which is really an arm, not a shoulder) can immediately knock the ball right down to your feet.

[Quercus]

@I_Love_Me_Vol.I

Again, I’d have to see it but it sounds like it could be a gray area. The way I’m picturing it now is the ball is near his chest level but instead of playing with his chest he is using his shoulder to knock it down. This is barely possible to do legally. If you want to “collect” the ball (it’s not really a trap) using your shoulder you’d really have to knock it upward and then let it fall to your feet. That’s because only the top of your shoulders are allowed. It’s much easier to use your head or chest.

If you try to shoulder it downward it’s likely a handling infraction because you are actually twisting your upper body at your waist to let your upper arm slap the ball forward and hoping it will look like you used your chest.

But once again, I am only imagining what could be happening. I’d have to see it.

This was my thought, too. But generally, if he’s deliberately using his shoulder/arm when he could use his chest or head, it’s probably handling, because the legal ways of using the shoulder are almost always worse at controlling the ball than using the chest or head (the Suarez example is a very rare exception). If it was legal and useful, you’d see professionals doing it all the time.

If the kid was actually using his upper arm to help trap the ball, then if he complains you can touch his upper arm where the ball hit and tell him using that is a foul.

[Nava]

Channeling my grandfather, who was a referee for over 70 years*, “if the referee has already said ‘don’t do that’, then what matters is the rule that says ‘the referee is in charge’.”

The kid may not have been guilty of “using his hand” but he was guilty of rules-lawyering.

• Over half of them as an examiner, attending games and evaluating the refs, and working in the office of the refs association.
  He considered as his greatest accomplishment that he once suspended a game after expelling more than 30 people between players and technicians; when he got another game with one of those two teams a couple of years later, his name was printed on the posters larger than those of both teams. Don’t mess with the referee.

[pulykamell]

@DSYoungEsq

The shoulder is part of the torso, of course.

This is what I would say. Actually, the shoulder is three parts: the clavicle, the blade, and the upper arm. The first two parts of these I would not consider the arm; the third I would. The refereeing thread I linked to above seems to say that the inside and upper shoulder is okay, but the outside is not. That said, there is a good bit of lively discussion on it, so it doesn’t seem completely clear.

Here’s an archived link to a publication from the US Soccer Federation’s advice to referees on the laws of the game. Scroll down to 12.11 for their rules on the shoulder and a diagram of what is and is not permitted.

12.11 USE OF THE SHOULDER
For purposes of determining deliberate handling of the ball, the “hand” is considered to be any part of
the arm-hand from fingertip to shoulder. Using the top of the shoulder is not considered as using the
hand. (A diagram showing the area of “the hand” is shown below.)

The diagram then shows the part of the arms and hand that are considered “handling.” If you imagine a tee shirt, the diagram basically shows from the seam where the armsleeve starts down to the fingertips to be handling.

[blueslipper]

@pulykamell

This is what I would say. Actually, the shoulder is three parts: the clavicle, the blade, and the upper arm. The first two parts of these I would not consider the arm; the third I would. The refereeing thread I linked to above seems to say that the inside and upper shoulder is okay, but the outside is not. That said, there is a good bit of lively discussion on it, so it doesn’t seem completely clear.

Here’s an archived link to a publication from the US Soccer Federation’s advice to referees on the laws of the game. Scroll down to 12.11 for their rules on the shoulder and a diagram of what is and is not permitted.

The diagram then shows the part of the arms and hand that are considered “handling.” If you imagine a tee shirt, the diagram basically shows from the seam where the armsleeve starts down to the fingertips to be handling.

This is useful and I am happy to go with it. It is just one interpretation of the rules though. Plus I am not in the USA. Technically the official FIFA rules are very vague here. When you stop to think about it and realise that the game is defined as being not using your arm. The official rules should give a better definition of what the arm means.

[DSYoungEsq]

@blueslipper

This is useful and I am happy to go with it. It is just one interpretation of the rules though. Plus I am not in the USA. Technically the official FIFA rules are very vague here. When you stop to think about it and realise that the game is defined as being not using your arm. The official rules should give a better definition of what the arm means.

Again, I would venture to say that 99% of people understand that the “arm” does not include the shoulder. The “arm” is the part of your body enclosing the humerus, the radius, and the ulna. I have never in 56 years of living heard someone talk about the shoulder as part of the arm, and in all the time I have been a soccer referee, including when I was a naive pup with little understanding of the rules, I never heard someone assert, nor was I tempted to assert that using the shoulder is “handling” the ball.

Until the most recent version of the Laws (not “rules”, “laws”, please), they didn’t even have a definition of “tackle” because everyone knew what that word meant who was involved in football. For us here in the US, that was a problem, since to us, a tackle means something entirely different. But again, that problem clears up quickly if you simply start watching some “real” soccer.

The IFAB Laws of the Game page. Please note that FIFA doesn’t promulgate the laws.

[I_Love_Me_Vol.I]

@blueslipper

This is useful and I am happy to go with it. It is just one interpretation of the rules though. Plus I am not in the USA. Technically the official FIFA rules are very vague here. When you stop to think about it and realise that the game is defined as being not using your arm. The official rules should give a better definition of what the arm means.

I believe the interpretations is the US Soccer publication are the exact same as the IFAB ones. In any event I don’t think you’d find many (any?) international referees who would disagree with that interpretation of handling the ball. It’s not some USA only interpretation.