Is using the top of your shoulder to play the ball a handball? I tried searching other places for this with no luck.
I was refereeing an under 10s game. I am not a professional referee. But I have refereed many little kids games and started studying to referee in higher matches.
So this boy kept on using the top of his shoulder to play the ball. I kept giving free kicks for handball. My understanding is that the shoulder is part of the arm. Using your arm is handball. This kid kept on protesting about it.
Any assistance greatly appreciated.
[ul]
[/ul]According to this Ask the Ref thread, no.
But, the official rule would seem to leave a lot of room for interpretation on this one:
“Handling the ball involves a deliberate act of a player making contact with the ball with the hand or arm. The following must be considered:
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[li]the movement of the hand towards the ball (not the ball towards the hand)[/li][li]the distance between the opponent and the ball (unexpected ball)[/li][li]the position of the hand does not necessarily mean that there is an infringement[/li][li]touching the ball with an object held in the hand (clothing, shinguard, etc.) is an infringement[/li][li]hitting the ball with a thrown object (boot, shinguard, etc.) is an infringement"[/ul][/li]
This is one of those many circumstances in which the guiding principle is “You’re the ref. It’s your call.”
Personally I’d let it go, they’re kids, but again, you’re the ref, it’s your discretion.
Whether medical science thinks so or not doesn’t matter. As far as the way the game goes the upper shoulder is not part of the arm in terms of handball. For the sake of the rules the arm is considered to end at the socket. Playing the ball with the upper part of the shoulder or the upper chest (for example, the collarbone area) is perfectly legal.
To put it succinctly, the “shoulder” is not the “arm”. The arm begins below the shoulder. The arm begins below the point of the shoulder blade. Practically speaking, as a referee, the “top” of the shoulder, and even the point of the shoulder should be ok.
blueslipper, this should have been demonstrated to you by the referee trainer. If it wasn’t, you might whisper a friendly word into that worthy person’s ear suggesting it be demonstrated at next year’s clinic. 
Oh, and if you are going to referee, please don’t call it “handball.” The foul in Law XII is for “deliberately handling” the ball; you should use the term “handling”. Yes, everyone else will call it “handball”, but then, everyone else is completely confused about when it should apply because of that. :rolleyes:
How can anyone say the shoulder is not part of the arm! Using the arm is handball.
I have reffed about 45 matches for for kids. I try not to give any free kicks. I have reffed many games without having to give one. On the other hand because the kids are learning I have to help them learn by learning the rules.
I know that referees may not enforce many rules that they should.
If a referee trainer tried to tell me the shoulder is not part of the arm I would ask what medical training they had and what colour the sky is
How about this: The arm is the part of the body that contains armbones.
Or this: I can move my entire arm without moving my shoulder.
Maradona used to use the top of his shoulder to juggle the ball. I THINK there might have been a very small incident once where he may have deliberately handled the ball, but that wasn’t it.
There’s a rather lively discussion I found here that might be an interesting read.
AIUI, shoulder is OK, any segment of the arm below the shoulder is not OK, and that is where the potential refereeing gray area would be controversial; whether the ball was too low on the arm/shoulder or not.
Medical training is not needed. It is not a medical issue, it is a soccer issue. When you are in doubt about something you should ask a referee instructor. The top of the shoulder–or the area between the neck and the outside top of the shoulder is in general, legal to use for playing the ball. The side of the shoulder is generally considered part of the arm for the purposes of call handling.
If you are going to referee–even young children (maybe ESPECIALLY young children) it’s important to know the Laws of the Game and the way that games are customarily called by referees (Interpretation of the Laws of the Game and Guidelines for Referees). Both of these things are together in one book (or one internet document). Read up and ask questions of instructors and State referees.
The Laws of the Game are a bit like criminal and civil law. On one hand you have the actual text of the laws, on the other you have “legal” precedent and case history to look back on and learn from. In soccer that’s called Interpretation of the Laws of the Game and Guidelines for Referees.
Except in soccer the referee is the cop AND the judge.
A “shoulder” is not medically part of an arm, and I’d love to see the medical training that says it is. Perhaps you could provide a reference?
Here is the definition of “arm” from trusty Merriam-Webster Onlline:
. NO one you ask is going to point to the top of the shoulder (the part between the neck and the point of the shoulder blade) and say that that is part of your arm. Literally NO one. Other than perhaps you, apparently.
Let me put this VERY succinctly: YOU WERE WRONG. And several people, from the sound of it, probably people with a much better grasp of the laws of soccer than you appear to have, probably because they actually watch and/or play the game, tried to tell you you were wrong. Sadly, it sounds like you didn’t listen to them. Further, it sounds like you weren’t properly trained before being sent out to referee the game. But based upon your answer here, it appears just possible that you have your mind made up and aren’t willing to listen. In which case, you have no business being a referee in a game you appear to know very little about.
Normally, I’m quite gentle on those who decide to referee youth games. I was a referee administrator for a youth league for several years; I appreciate anyone who wants to make the effort to learn how to do the job properly. But I have little tolerance for people who don’t want to learn how to do the job properly; such people are bad for the sport. If you have refereed 45 games already, and you still don’t know that the top of the shoulder can be used to play the ball, and you don’t whistle for fouls, then you should either amend your attitude, or get out of refereeing. I whistle fouls in Under-6 games, because sometimes they do things they aren’t supposed to do. Not whistling for the foul would be like letting a T-ball player miss first base, and not call him out. :dubious:
The top of the shoulder is absolutely not handling. Absolutely no way. There is no way that you should be a referee at any level of play and not be aware of that. And really, as long as people are not intentionally using their arms in ways inconsistent with the way they use the rest of their body to play the ball, it should not be considered handling. The rule imposing a foul for handling is certain at the very center of the game, and thus it’s important to understand exactly why it’s there and what it’s trying to prevent. I don’t understand how anyone would think that playing the ball with the top of the shoulder would be any more helpful than with the head, chest, or other random part of the body other than the arms. It is far, far, far easier to both predict the path of the ball and to modify the way you play the ball to influence its path when playing it off your chest or head compared to off your shoulder.
Do you seriously think that people are getting an unfair advantage because they are playing off their shoulder? Or is that something that you’re not concerned about, because you want to follow the letter of the law? Well, in soccer, the ref has very wide leeway in determining what acts that might be considered fouls actually get called. “Advantage” being the most prominent one - if a player fouls his opponent, but his opponent keeps control of the ball and is largely unaffected by the foul, the “fouled” player might well complain if you stop play to call a foul because the defense now has a chance to reset while you return the ball to the spot of the foul. Your job as the referee is to make sure that anything that causes an unfair advantage get called, not to follow the rules of play by rote.
Can’t a guy start a thread looking for support against a child, without people showing up and informing him he’s wrong?!
You need to calm down. I am here to ask the question hoping to learn what people think.
As I am just reffing little kids games, nobody trained me. I am helping out the club because nobody else is near being able to ref.
No idea what T-ball is.
The only one that complained was the kid who appeared very talented in using his shoulder to play the ball.
If the shoulder is not part of the arm what is it part of?
I’d really have to have seen what this kid was doing to know whether he was handling the ball or not. I suppose it’s possible that he was handling it but the way you first described it sounded as though he wasn’t.
I’d didn’t realize you hadn’t had any instruction. I guess I assumed you had a license. If you are basically total volunteer who is just trying his best because no one else will do it then I have some sympathy for you. But even if you didn’t get formal instruction, pass a test, and get a license, there are still ways to get a minimal idea of what you should be calling. I’d guess the internet has some good instructional videos.
IMO, it’s actually more difficult, in many ways, to call a U8 or U10 game than it is U19 or Open (mostly adult). Often at that age the players have no idea at all what they are doing or what the game is all about. That puts a referee in a tough spot. I never officiated a game younger than U12 and I only did travel teams so usually there was some amount of skill involved. I could never have done a U10 rec league.
Thanks for your response.
It is very difficult because every game is a volunteer ref. The parents are very fanatical. I do not even have anyone running the touch lines.
I have started a course in Melbourne- first thing is a 6 hour course by internet. Have just received first Certificate.
The kid was very skilled in using his shoulder to bring down the ball- I have never seen anyone do that before. It wasn’t just the ball falling on the top of his shoulder. He was controlling it with the top of his shoulder instead of chesting it down.
Here is my favourite place-
Again, I’d have to see it but it sounds like it could be a gray area. The way I’m picturing it now is the ball is near his chest level but instead of playing with his chest he is using his shoulder to knock it down. This is barely possible to do legally. If you want to “collect” the ball (it’s not really a trap) using your shoulder you’d really have to knock it upward and then let it fall to your feet. That’s because only the top of your shoulders are allowed. It’s much easier to use your head or chest.
If you try to shoulder it downward it’s likely a handling infraction because you are actually twisting your upper body at your waist to let your upper arm slap the ball forward and hoping it will look like you used your chest.
But once again, I am only imagining what could be happening. I’d have to see it.
And that’s fine. It was just odd upthread when you seemed to be passionately arguing against the answer you were being given.
Anything above the joint is not considered part of the arm and is OK. You do see professional players use the shoulder to control the ball but in most situations it’s easier to use the chest.
If this boy is doing something useful with his shoulder, and not touching the ball with his arm at all, then that would be very interesting to see. Perhaps he’s found some kind of exploit in the game, like the superlong throw-in.
Good example of (legal) shoulder control here from Luis Suarez:
Go to the 2min 37sec mark and watch in real-time followed by slow motion replay.
The shoulder is part of the torso, of course.