(Some) Cyclists, I am really getting sick of your shit

[Miller]

@cowgirl

I see an awful lot of automobiles create safety problems that wouldn’t exist if the driver would simply choose another form of transportation. Sometimes even, their very presence on the road creates more problems than the problem that is solved for the driver. In fact I think I can say with some certainty that everyone - drivers, cyclists and pedestrians - would be substantially safer, the more automobile drivers chose alternative forms of transportation.

And yet, automobile drivers are never asked to get off the road for these reasons.

You don’t think that the fact that the roads were built for cars in the first place has something to do with that?

[scr4]

@Ogre

Again, simply find a different way to navigate the main road, and you minimize your impact on the safety of others.

How exactly do you suggest I navigate on the main road?

[scr4]

@Miller

You don’t think that the fact that the roads were built for cars in the first place has something to do with that?

You’re wrong. Roads are built for vehicles. Bicycles are vehicles.

[Ogre]

@scr4

In other words, you think people shouldn’t be allowed to use bicycles as a means of transport, because it interferes with other people’s ability to use cars as a means of transport. Is there any justification for this bias?

Let me go back and address this again, because this sort of post really bugs me. Essentially, my issue is this:

WTF?! Did I ever say that I don’t think people should be able to use bikes for transportation? What is it with people not actually reading what was written, and automatically taking the most extreme possible interpretation of intent? I know you folks are emotionally involved in this, but seriously…calm down. I’m trying to discuss this in a fairly nuanced and compromising manner. Do me the favor of not attempting to demonize everything I say, huh?

[Ogre]

@scr4

How exactly do you suggest I navigate on the main road?

By getting off your bike and accepting that there’s a safest possible scenario that still allows you to get where you need to go.

[scr4]

@Ogre

WTF?! Did I ever say that I don’t think people should be able to use bikes for transportation?

I stated I have a choice of bicycling on a back street or bicycling on a main street, and explained the trade-off for each option. You responded by saying:

Actually, there are probably a host of safer alternatives. Walking, taking a cab, carpooling, taking the bus, catching a ride with a neighbor, etc.

How else am I supposed to interpret that remark?

[scr4]

I see it took you only one minute to go from:

@Ogre

WTF?! Did I ever say that I don’t think people should be able to use bikes for transportation?

to:

@Ogre

> How exactly do you suggest I navigate on the main road?

By getting off your bike and accepting that there’s a safest possible scenario that still allows you to get where you need to go.

:rolleyes:

[Ogre]

@scr4

I stated I have a choice of bicycling on a back street or bicycling on a main street, and explained the trade-off for each option. You responded by saying:

How else am I supposed to interpret that remark?

Perhaps by thinking “he’s talking about me specifically, not about ‘people’ in general.” So yeah, perhaps if you (specific you) currently have no alternatives other than creating a mess out of traffic, and thus a potentially dangerous situation, you should consider making some changes. If there’s heavy car traffic on all your possible routes, insisting on being the slowest and most vulnerable link in the chain may not be the safest choice, either for you or for those around you.

[Ogre]

@scr4

I see it took you only one minute to go from:
to:
:rolleyes:

Actually, that was my point the whole time. The choice to use a bicycle should not be non-negotiable in these situations. If you think it is completely set in stone, then perhaps you should look at your own prejudices.

[scr4]

@Ogre

Perhaps by thinking “he’s talking about me specifically, not about ‘people’ in general.”

Or perhaps you made an error in thinking that I’m talking about one specific route in one specific town, rather than stating generalizations based on many years of bicycle commuting in several states and two countries.

[Ogre]

@scr4

Or perhaps you made an error in thinking that I’m talking about one specific route in one specific town, rather than stating generalizations based on many years of bicycle commuting in several states and two countries.

No, I made no such assumption.

[Mr.Miskatonic]

@Ogre

Actually, that was my point the whole time. The choice to use a bicycle should not be non-negotiable in these situations. If you think it is completely set in stone, then perhaps you should look at your own prejudices.

What’s stopping you from finding another form of transportation where you won’t be bothered by cyclists in the road?

[Ogre]

@Mr. Miskatonic

What’s stopping you from finding another form of transportation where you won’t be bothered by cyclists in the road?

That’s right. Everybody else needs to change. Not me!

And, in fact, I have commuted by bike in the past.

[Mr.Miskatonic]

@Ogre

Since the rest of your post was self-entitled blah-blah-blah, I’ll briefly address the crux:

That’s my point. You are legally entitled to ride, but it’s funny how I never see a biker wanting to take the safest possible alternative in these little dust-ups.

How do you know that? Have you ridded their route? Are you going where they are? Or are you just assuming you know better.

Rarely the case,

Wrong again. You keep asserting this, but it isn’t true. plain and simple/

and when it is, the safest possible alternative is to find a better way to get where you want to go.

And if there isn’t?

Actually, that’s all I ask. Find a route where you’re less likely to cause problems. If you do that, you’re not an asshole.

But what if there is no other route?

What’s making you an asshole right now is the fact that you’re taking such massive umbrage, and seem to be incapable of discussing the issue in a rational manner.

The irrational portion of this discussion comes from you: You are the one insisting that I ‘find another way’ in order to convenience your drive a minimal amount. To justify this, you have invented a ‘safety issue’ which is bullshit in the extreme.

[scr4]

@Ogre

The choice to use a bicycle should not be non-negotiable in these situations. If you think it is completely set in stone, then perhaps you should look at your own prejudices.

The idea that cars and bicycles have equal rights is not prejudice.

I am prejudiced in thinking that bicycles should have more rights than cars, considering bicycles have far less impact on the environment, and a city planning that favors bicycles would result in a more friendly and pleasant environment for everyone. But that’s just a feeling, not something I act upon on the road.

No, I made no such assumption.

OK, so what exactly do you believe? Are you saying bkes should be allowed as a means of transport, but only if it has absolutely zero effect on car traffic? You won’t find such a situation anywhere in the world, so that’s no different from saying “bikes shouldn’t be allowed.”

[Ogre]

@Mr. Miskatonic

How do you know that? Have you ridded their route? Are you going where they are? Or are you just assuming you know better.

Wrong again. You keep asserting this, but it isn’t true. plain and simple/

And if there isn’t?

But what if there is no other route?

The irrational portion of this discussion comes from you: You are the one insisting that I ‘find another way’ in order to convenience your drive a minimal amount. To justify this, you have invented a ‘safety issue’ which is bullshit in the extreme.

You never question your most basic assumption, do you? You always start with “Well, I’m riding my bike, no matter what. Everybody else can lump it.”

[Sauron]

@Mr. Miskatonic

Oh Sauron, did you need another example of how these threads cascade into a get-off-the-road-cyclist hatefest?

"Hey, Clem. That thar bull’s dangerous. He’ll charge for no reason. Watch.

"Well, he’ll charge if I walk right in front of him. Watch.

"Well, he’ll charge if I hit him upside the haid with this two-by-four. Watch.

"Well, he’ll charge if I shewt him in the shoulder with muh pistol. Watch.

“TOLD YEW! THAT THAR BULL’S DANGEROUS! RUN, CLEM!”

[Ruken]

@Zeriel

Don’t break the law.

Why not? It’s just a law, and is not necessarily correlated to what is convenient or safe.

[Ogre]

@scr4

The idea that cars and bicycles have equal rights is not prejudice.

I am prejudiced in thinking that bicycles should have more rights than cars, considering bicycles have far less impact on the environment, and a city planning that favors bicycles would result in a more friendly and pleasant environment for everyone. But that’s just a feeling, not something I act upon on the road.

And I agree with that. If I never saw another car outside of the interstates, I’d be happy. If everyone in the city either walked, rode bikes, or used mass transit, I’d be delighted. But such is not the case, especially in mid-sized Southern cities like Huntsville. The fact of the matter is that >99.9% of all commuters in that situation are using cars, and by interfering with their progress (if you do so,) you’re creating a more dangerous situation.

OK, so what exactly do you believe? Are you saying bkes should be allowed as a means of transport, but only if it has absolutely zero effect on car traffic? You won’t find such a situation anywhere in the world, so that’s no different from saying “bikes shouldn’t be allowed.”

Stay off the main roads. You’re making a bad situation worse. Either find a low-traffic alternative, or catch a bus (or whatever.)

[scr4]

@Ogre

You never question your most basic assumption, do you?

What about your most basic assumption, which seems to be that every car driver has the right to use the road without any interference from other types of vehicles?