I said I did NOT believe he would be taking orders from the Mormon church. Why do you think I should dig up proof that he would?
His appointments of Mormons to judicial and legislative positions could just be because he has so many in his sphere. It is not a cabal for taking over. But I like separation of church and state. I am not getting it. Bush flaunted his religious choices for jobs. That is because he had religion as such a big part of his life. I see Romney as the same. Mormonism is a big factor in the followers life.
Some Mormon women hold office. That proves the church has equality of women as a teaching?How? She had to overcome the church.
The Mormon church has made some changes to long held beliefs that blacks and women are inferior. They had to at least make an effort to do so in modern America. They would be in real trouble if they still said they held that women and blacks are beneath men. But saying it could be a political expedience.
As of today ,we no longer believe women and blacks are inferior. Forget all your previous teaching and feelings. We declare that we are no longer bigoted. If only it were that easy.
Mormonism is a new religion. It is quickly changing with the times. Why should they have to? If they were divinely inspired by a guy who translated gods truth, you should stick to your roots and let the chips fall. You can defend your bigotry by claiming that is what god wanted. He gave your founder nifty gold tablets that only he could understand. Who are you to change gods truth? I would have more respect if you just said we think blacks and women are inferior because god said so.
You said that you didn’t think he’d necessarily be taking orders. That implies that you think it’s a possibility. Or did you not mean to put that word in there?
How “LDS heavy” was his administration when he was Governor?
I like separation of church and state, too. I don’t see how you’re not getting it. Bush didn’t turn the country into a theocracy and I certainly don’t see how Romney could, even if he wanted to, turn the country into a super-size “State of Deseret.”
Why do you see him that way? Please cite specific examples of how Romney tried to turn his state into a theocracy.
So what? How does that mean he’s going to chuck the Constitution if he’s elected President? What in the man’s track record makes you think he’s Nehemiah Scudder?
I tell you what it looks like to me. You don’t like the man’s religion so you fear the religion’s top dog will control him like a martinet. The problem is there’s no evidence support that fear.
Overcome the church? Oh, please. Tell me where the LDS church has prohibited women from participating in the public sphere.
Bush did a lot to turn America into a theocracy. People had to pass a religious litmus to get a job. He hired people from Evangelist Schools. He made sure his court choices had the right position on abortion and religion before he nominated them. He was an unabashed religious nut .
Romney was 32 when the church said blacks were not a sub species. That means he was a follower of a church that believed blacks were inferior for 3 decades. Why is that OK?
The Mormon Women’s Forum & Eve Award posts – Feminist Mormon Housewives I have read about women being second class citizens in the Mormon church. I don’t want to speak for them. This article will explain it from their viewpoint. This is a group who discuss the mistreatment of women from their perspective inside the church. It has suppressed them for almost 2 centuries.
PostMormon.org Here is a forum of ex Mormon women who quit the church over the poor treatment, talk to each other about the damage that was done.
Granted.
Why in the world do you assume that applies to Romney? I don’t notice Massachusetts laboring under the remnants of a Mormon theocracy, nor do I notice that Michigan did so under Romney’s father. (As you, of all people, should remember.)
I’d be unhappy if Romney were elected president because of his political views, not because of his religion.
FeministMormonHousewives.org was the first thing that occurred to me when the question was asked, but I saw no specific examples of “prohibited women from participating in the public sphere.”
The vast majority of Mormon women I have met have never indicated that they feel oppressed.
Certainly in Mormonism men and women have different responsibilities. Men are to be Priesthood holders and the family breadwinners. Woman are to be nurturers. This rule is followed loosely in Mormon culture, and is stated in the The Family: A Proclamation to the World. Exceptions are made for cases where the male breadwinner is unable to provide due to “Disability, death, or other circumstances.”
But as I said, these rules are followed loosely. My wife juggles a job and kids, and she hasn’t been ostracized.
Behind closed doors, things are different. Men covenant to God to obey God, and women covenant to God to obey their husbands, trusting that their husband’s commands come from God. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think these words were supposedly dictated to Joseph Smith by God. Whatever the origins of the doctrine, Mormon women and men can’t reach the highest level of heaven unless they make and obey this covenant, for women to obey their husband as if he were God. And this is not an obscure historical rant that’s been forgotten by the believers; every Mormon today who has been married in the temple or has served a mission has sworn this oath.
Cite, please?
If so, that does nothing to turn America into a theocracy.
Well, it pretty much goes without saying that a President will choose supreme court nominees with stances on important issues similar to his own.
Can you name any religious issue where Bush’s stance was much different from that of the majority of America’s.
Bush did nothing to turn America into a theocracy. America was a republic when he entered office and it was still a republic when he left office.
Oh now he has to have succeeded for it to count. The fact that he Evangelized the legislative and judicial branches of the government is irrelevant if we did not become a total theocracy. Keep moving the goalposts .For 8 years we had religion a big factor in choices for judges and for people in cabinet positions. I resented it. I think a religious test is un-American and wrong.
Then you could answer my post just above (#346) rather than ITR champion’s.
Bush called for a crusade against Muslims.
In 2003 Bush told the Palestinian Prime Minister that "God told me to strike against Al Qaeda and I did. God instructed me to strike at Saddam and I did. And now I am determined to solve this problem in the Middle east.’
Remember Bush’s faith based initiatives/ He allowed religious organizations to compete for Govt, Programs without a separation of the religious and social programs.
He allowed for religious job discrimination in the government programs run by the church. They could apply for up to 65 billion dollars of programs.
Nope, no religion in the Bush regime. I must be imagining it.
Bush was a lot worse on religion that I even feared possible. Romney as a devout Mormon would have religion as a huge part of his life. Can I prove that he will be like Bush? Of course not, it has not happened yet. But the Mormons I meet are pretty damn overboard. What can make me feel that he will be casual about his religion in government when he so proudly proclaims his Mormonism?
Y’know, I tend to agree that there was a heavy tilt toard the Religious Right during Bush’s term, but if you aregoing to make accusations, it would help if you did not get all your facts wrong.
Bush stuck his foot in his mouth by calling for a “crusade” against terrorists, thus irritating a great many Muslims who see the word as inappropriate for historical reasons, but Bush was quite clear from the first that there should never be a war on Islam or Muslims. You are twisting his typical lack of historical recognition and his tone deaf speechifying into something he never said.
While Bush’s proposed Faith Based intitiatives were probably proposed with a naive hope that he could blur the separation of church and state, the actual Congressional authorizations that were passed were all written in keeping with the Constitution, (and really did not make much difference in the long run–Catholic Charities has been a significant government contractor, performing a lot of work at a cheaper cost than government agencies, for decades before GWB was elected). (I would agree that a number of the Faith Based outfits probably produced some harm with “abstinence only” counselling and such, but it never amounted to much more than a propaganda ploy that failed.)
I don’t see how you can be unaware of this, but there are plenty of people of many different denomations in public office and their religion is a huge part of their lives. Again, you seem to be singling out Mormons, and Romney in particular, for this attack.
“At all” is not spelled y-e-t. It hasn’t happened and there’s no evidence to support that it’s likely or even remotely possible that it’ll happen.
Maybe you need to expand your circle of acquaintences, then. I know I haven’t met all of the approximately five million Mormons in the US–Hey, I’ve only met about a thousand of the 80,000+ Mormons here in Korea in the last five years–but the ones I know who are lawyers take their oaths as lawyers seriously, the ones I know in the military take their oaths of enlistment or oaths of office seriously, the ones I know who teach in public schools take the separation of church and state seriously. Maybe you’ve just been unlucky and I’ve just been lucky or maybe, just maybe, you’re just paying attention to the stuff that supports your view…confirmation basis?
What makes you think he’s going to violate his oath of office when he didn’t do that as governor?
Hey, he was sure going about that the wrong way, then, if he wanted to evangelize the judicial branch, what with appointing a Mormon judge. There’s not all that much love lost between those two groups.
Here’s an interesting question, if he was so hopped up on having Evangelicals in office, why’d he remain a Methodist?
But you want one for Romney, it appears.
Oh, I didn’t ask you about how women were treated in church. I asked you if the church prohibited women members from participating in the public sphere. As there are Mormon office holders who are not shunned by their church, the evidence would seem that their church doesn’t have a problem with that.
Also, you might want to update your dictionary. People who join a church are members of that church. Citizenship is something bestowed by a nation, not a church. Maybe this phrasing will help you focus your answer: Does the Mormon church prohibit its female members from running for public office and, if they do run for said office, does the Mormon church excommunicate them?
Are “cafeteria Mormons” a common phenomenon? If Romney signed a bill allowing gay marriage, would there be repercussions? The RCC has tried to strong arm pro-choice politicians (by not allowing communion, etc. I think it’s only been a few bishops who have tried these tactics). Does this happen in Mormonism? Would rank-and-file Mormons support these tactics if they were tried?
I’m trying to get at how cohesive a group Mormons are, and how big a deal it would be for someone to “stray” from the church’s teachings.
The only reason I single out Romney is because he may be running for president again. If a snake handler was running for president, I would be singling them out. If a Scientologist was running, I would attack him and his religion.
You are changing goalposts yet again. I did not say the church kept women from running for office. Nor did I say they would excommunicate them. I said the church treated them like underlings. They were not allowed to get high in the church, because they are women. I am offended by that. Like polygamy, it is evidence women are given lower status by Mormons. I gave you items written by Mormon women who have been sat upon by men in the church. They feel oppressed. It is not a new phenomenon. The Mormon attitude toward women has been problematic for a long time. Neither you or the Mormons can hand wave it away. It is a church with a recent history of bigotry toward blacks and suppression of women. I am not comfortable with that.
I think it’s silly to make someone responsible for everything a church does. By that measure, none of us could get elected for anything as we all belong to one group or another that discriminates. Carter lived in Georgia with a history of slavery, so and so belonged to the Teamsters which used to discriminate against blacks and women, …
I just want to know if Romney really thinks The Garden if Eden was in Missouri and that the lost tribes of Israel made it to North America.
I disagree. Someone who belongs to a certain faith are responsible for what the church does. The Catholic Church has lied, bullied victims, shifted the blame ect. in regards to the child raping priest problem. If a large number of the members of the church stood up and demanded action things would be very different. Unfortunately, it looks like most of the Catholics don’t seem bothered enough by the child raping priests to stop financially supporting the church and don’t look at it as a problem.
If the Mormon church now allowed blacks and women in positions of power and treated them equally, I wouldn’t have as big a problem with Romney. Since AFAIK has not spoken out about the second class treatment of women or withdrawn his support of the church he is essentially supporting the policy and deserves to be called on it.
Faith Base Initiative This site provides Bush’s intentions and actions that were faith centered. It was not just a benign belief ,but an intention to deliberately infuse religion into the government. He makes it clear over and over that his reading of Faith drove his decisions. It impacted us in everything from giving tax dollars to evangelical churches and programs to selecting government positions based on religious belief. It includes the dumbing down of America with an anti-science stance and an anti evolution battle. They forced scientists to rewrite their work based on rejection by religious philosophy. It was a bad time for the US and I don’t want to go through it again.
http://rawstory.com/rs/2010/0507/gay-marriage-foes-challenged-federal-funds/ The most recent attempt to blend religion and governmental money. They lie about what they will do to get the money, then go full bore faith base.