Living in Georgia doesn’t mean you agree with a bunch of racist assholes that happened to live in Georgia 150 years ago. It just means you chose to continue living in the same state you were born in.
Being a member of the Teamsters presumably doesn’t mean you agree with the previous leadership about discriminating against blacks and women. It just means you’re wanting to take advantage of the services the modern-day Teamsters union provides.
Being a member of a religion that has prophets does mean you think those prophets had special insight into what’s true and what’s false.
Well said. I doubt that many Georgians believe that all of their previous governors spoke the inerrant word of God, and that God would not allow His Governors to lead the state astray.
The LDS Church today has not renounced its past. It still teaches that Brigham Young was a Prophet of God. The curriculum for Priesthood and Relief Society meetings from 1998 to 2009 was a series of books entitled “Teachings of the Presidents of the Church” with the racist, bloodthirsty, ans sexist teachings conveniently omitted. But because they still teach and believe that Brigham Young was a prophet and that God will not allow the prophet to misguide the church, they are still responsible for his revelations.
Or it could men that you were raised in the church and your family goes there, and a lot of your friends go there, and you really want to get married in the same church as your parents and older brothers and sisters, and it is familiar and comforting, and a lot of your leisure activities are sponsored by the church, and even if you wanted to go to another church there may not be a great selection in your small town in Utah, and it would hurt your grandparent’s feelings and they have always been so nice to you and are going to die soon, and you have a crush on that person who sits in the pew next to you, and the church ladies were so nice to your aunt when she had breast cancer.
Of course it could also mean that you buy into every reprehensible thing the church has ever done even though it happened before you were born and you aren’t that familiar with it anyway.
I can’t speak for Romney in particular, as I don’t know if he is a firm believer or a closeted atheist like I was the last couple of years in the LDS Church.
The Book of Mormon is a key element of the religion. One cannot accept Mormonism without accepting the Book of Mormon to be a perfect record of Hebrew prophets who migrated to the Americas immediately before the destuction of Jerusalem in 600BC and created a vast civilization, the remnants of which are today’s American Indians.
The LDS Church was founded according to the revelations of God to Joseph Smith. One of these identifies the location of the Garden of Eden in Missouri. Another revelation commands the Saints to build a city of Zion in Jackson County, Missouri, so that the Biblical City of Enoch can descend from Heaven and merge with the LDS Zion.
The attitudes of the LDS today vary regarding Missouri. A common attitude is a belief that the Saints will someday have to walk from Salt Lake City back to Zion. Another common attitude is “Meh. Another ‘Zion’ talk. Wake me when this meeting is over.” But belief in a 100% literal interpretation of the Book of Mormon is a non-negotiable aspect of belief in Mormonism.
The real reason that I’d like to see more questions about the religious beliefs of candidates is that I think it would “out” many closet doubters. It’s really easy to go through the motions of religion without really believing. Lots of people take communion without thinking that it is really the blood and flesh of Jesus, or get up and talk in tongues because it is expected. I remember that awkward moment when they asked the Republican candidates if they believed in evolution and three of them said they didn’t. Later they weaseled there way out by saying that they really just saying that man was created by God. It would have been great to see them asked specific questions like “Do you think that the earth is about 10,000 years old like the bible says or billions of years old like most scientists believe?”, or “do you think that man gradually evolved from other animals over millions of years or was created by God separately in the form we see now?”.
As voters, we have a right to know if the people we are voting for are loons. I think it is also important for fundamentalists to see that some of the people they follow do not buy into a literal reading of the Bible. I don’t for one moment think that Limbaugh or O’Reilly are bible literalists, yet they are able to rouse the rabble with constant allusions to secularists and atheists. In the same way, I don’t think that someone like Romney really thinks that The Book of Mormon is literally true. Having him say so would allow others within the church to express their views as well.
On the other hand, if we really have someone running for president who thinks that the lost tribes of Israel really did make it to North America we have a right to know that and question their judgement on issues that require a grasp of history, science, and reasoning.
Think of the beauty of a Palin/Romney ticket.
On O’Reilly she said
I think we should keep it simple, go back to what our founders and our founding documents meant. They are quite clear, that we would create law based on the god of the bible and the 10 commandments. It is really quite simple.
OK. We are safe. Don’t worry about the religious nuts, they would never push their religion on us.
I do not see Mormonism as just another religion. I see the believers as having to wear blinders to ignore some stupid and wrong beliefs. Does Romney believe women are inferior? Does he believe blacks are not equal? I can not say for sure but he is a member of a church that does. When he learned about it, why did he not walk away from it. The idea of blacks being inferior was finally killed when Romney was 32. He was not a blind unthinking kid.
Does he think he will get his own planet when he dies? I wonder.
What about a Roman Catholic? Last I heard, more than a few of them were running for public office. Have you accused them of being unqualified for office because of their religion or their religion’s history?
Maybe you like saying that or maybe you have your metaphor all wrong like you do with your facts. It’s more like you’re the one shooting in a field and every time you miss (which is every shot you take), you get upset with the referee for saying you missed the shot.
Then nothing else really matters about it. Since the church doesn’t control citizenship or qualification for public office, it’s a non-issue. Mormon women can and do run for office and have not only gotten elected to such office, their church has congratulated them for that.
Let’s see. There’s the Relief Society General Presidency. That’s kind of high, what with it being an international organization.
Well, bully for you. Here’s a thought. If it offends you, don’t join that church. By the way, when and where was it when the Mormon church tried to dictate your life?
What about all those other churches that had no problem with slavery just a tad over a hundred years ago? Is that recent history, too, or are you giving them a pass on that? What about the Muslims running for office? Are you attacking them based on their religion, too?
Then don’t join that church. But if you’re going to complain about the candiddate’s unfitness for office, perhaps you should examine how he performs in public office and quit condemning him for your fears of what hey may do that he’s never done before.
Monty why do you have so much trouble with this? Mormonism is not equivalent to the Roman Catholic Church. The Catholics have had centuries to polish that turd. I think at the core they are all crap. I recognize that lots of people are religious. Some of them are smart and capable. I have trouble comprehending why anyone follows a religion at all. But I have had to make a grudging peace with it. But I do not respect cults . On my cult list are snake handlers, Scientologists, religions that think some person is a living god, and Mormonism. They have some really stupid beliefs.
If a person is a Mormon, they are a member of a church that discriminated against blacks, suppressed women, follows leaders ,Smith for instance, that were goofy con men, believed in polygamy until they were pressured out of it, and many other nutty ideas like Kobol and becoming a god with your own planet. How can you ignore this stuff? All religions have some strange beliefs that require some blindness on their followers. The catholics watched passively for centuries while priests buggered kids. They covered it up and protected the perpetrators instead of the children. That was wrong.
I have trouble with any person who says they are religious. I have more trouble with cult members. The Mormons are a cult by my definition.
You have to profess to be a religious person to get elected in America. I suspect many pols go through the motions regretting having to give up Sunday morning golf. But it is part of a ritual they have to adhere to .
This statement would be false except that you choose to make up your own definition for words.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints stopped being a cult shortly after the death of Brigham young.
There are four general meanings of the word cult as it is used in American English.
as a direct cognate translation of the Latin cultus, meaning any well-organized set of religious beliefs. In this sense, all the various sects and denominations of Christianity and Islam could each be called cults, as could Judaism or its individula groups, Hinduism or its individual sects, etc.
any religious group with a strong connection to a living or recently-deceased leader. In this case the LDS could be called a cult only up until the death of Brigham Young, at which point the direct connection to Joseph Smith was broken. On the other hand, Christianity would be a cult of Jesus, in this sense, until the death of the first generation of Apostles.
a nominally religious-based group enforcing direct control over all aspects of the lives of its adherents in the manner of Jim Jones, etc.
any religious group opposed by various fundie groups.
Given your distate for the Church of Rome and your ignorance of Latin, Definition 1 is ruled out.
I will accept definition 2, but as I have noted, the time when the word could be applied has passed away by more than 125 years.
Definition 3 simply does not apply, no matter how you would wish it were true to buttress your feelings. A cult controls every aspect of a member’s life, telling them how to earn a living, how to spend their income, where to live, whom to marry, etc. However much you need for the Mormons to be a cult, they simply fail to actually engage in that level of direct control.
This leaves Definition 4, in which you need to join forces with American religious Fundamentalists to gain support. Of course, you may actually wish to embrace that definition, much to my amusement.
KOLOB! KOLOB! That mistake bugs me almost as much as people who call the last book of the New Testament “Revelations”. If they know enough about LDS beliefs to know about Kolob, they should be able to get the name right!
I think you are getting close to the answer to this debate.
I don’t mean to be insulting here, just realistic. Everyone agrees that 50% of people are below average. Look at the low end of that group and you will find some genuinely stupid people. They’re just out there, and there isn’t much anybody can do about it.
So. Look at the lives of 2 hypothetical stupid people. One of them comes to the end of their rope and sees that they are going to crash their life, and suddenly get mixed up with the Mormons. Maybe they believe every single thing they are told- why wouldn’t they? They are stupid after all. However, they are going to meetings with non-smoking sober people who tell them this stuff and who want the stupid person in their group. Yah, maybe the leadership is winking at each other when no one is looking, but they do care about social service &etc… All stupid people have to do is be obedient followers (not smart!) and they are in. If not obedient followers, what roles are available for stupid people in our society (besides Republican POTUS, I know, please don’t derail) Once they are in, what do they get? The support of a community of clean-living, family-oriented people. They’ll get support finding a job, social support and events, sober friends, who knows, maybe they’ll get introduced to other stupid people and start a family. But the church repsects its stupid people and wants them to have good lives. They all pay their 10% tithes to build a giant Mormon gorilla that can defend the interests of its flock. By toeing the line they can achieve a relatively successful life. Compared to the embarrassment or ignorant declaration of, ‘You betcha, the Garden of Eden really was in Missouri’, it isn’t that big a deal. What does it matter where the Garden of Eden was anyway? They get to contribute, and they get support. Maybe they end up moral individuals in spite of their mental handicap.
Compare with your average stupid person who doesn’t manage to associate with anything positive. If they are truly stupid, they don’t know well enough not to smoke crack, not to rob convenience stores- they don’t know how to stay healthy, or happy, or out of jail. They don’t get support, they very well may become loathsome individuals… train wreck.
This is why a character like Romney isn’t going to publicly renounce his faith. I became convinced that Bush had trouble putting 2 and 2 together. Romney? Not his problem. But part of that is the pragmatism in not screwing up a program that creates a supportive community for people who might otherwise go off the rails. I think top religious leadership (sometimes) know what’s up.
Even if some of the factual claims of the faith are laughable. Look, at best those crazy ideas are a filter. Someone who doesn’t really rillly want to be a committed part of the group is going to laugh themselves right out of there.
I am sure you found your definition all encompassing. But not I. I found lots of definitions for cults not included in your post. Such as a cult is a group of people who are devoted to beliefs that are not held by the mainstream. A belief system tha6 separates its followers from the surrounding culture that sees them as different. Further, it generally impacts a followers, health ,wealth and personal relations.
They have historically separated themselves from their neighbors. They practically have their own state. They are beginning to try to fit in ,but have not accomplished that yet.
They are into followers money. They are very up front and serious about tithing. They are getting very wealthy.
Then how about personal relationships? They have looked down on blacks and gays, they have suppressed women. They are outside the mainstream. Yep they are a cult.
Of course, not, you share the belief system, (although not the particular beliefs), of fundies and you need to be able to demonize people with whom you disagree–hence your rationalizations to come up with ways to disguise your use of definition #4.
I don’t know why anyone is arguing about cults as no one who disagrees with asking these sort of questions seems to feel it is appropriate to ask cult members about their beliefs either. At least no one has acknowledged it. The closest has been Tomndebb questioning my beliefs and how they influence me and I’m not religious!
Stamp ‘Religion’ on it and it gets a pass in many people’s minds no matter how goofy.
