Yes, but *The Silmarillion * also has info on the 2nd Age and the Fall of Numenor and even sums up the War of the Ring nicely. The appendices of Return of the King go into better detail on the Kingdoms of the North and South.
Isildur was descended from Elrond’s brother Elros, yes. VERY distantly. I’m sure QtM can give the proper number of generations, but it was a lot.
And Denethor…well, he was “fey.” Even if he’d been saved by Gandalf, wouldn’t he just have tried again, and maybe taken more than just Faramir with him?
guin, yes, Aragorn is descended from Elros, twin brother of Elrond, via Isildur. Most of the info mentioned in this thread can be gleamed from LOTR, but ya gotta read those appendices at the end of ROTK.
And Sil has lots of stuff in it about Numenor, Isildur, the rings of power, too. Same for Unfinished Tales. You need not wrestle with HOMES to get the gist of things.
You know, some jerk is going to come in here and defend Denethor, and that jerk is me. I thugh he was the most compelling character in the story. He was certainly vain, but I think Tolkien made it pretty clear that he had reason to be. I can’t provide cites, because the ex got custody of Middle Earth, and I haven’t put a collection together for myself yet, but I believe that he had been using the palantir for quite some time by the time we meet him, and fared better with it than Saruman did. He acted as the leader of nation would be expected to. He mistrusted Gandalf, especially since he couldn’t work out what his angle was. He did not acknowledge Aragorn’s kingship, but there was an ancient precedent for it. Also he lived in a society that was largely held together by the wisdom, courage and charisma of its nobles. In this society’s darkest hour, he still doesn’t come off much worse than Joe Kennedy, Sr.
Actually there is no definitive answer.
The first King of Numenor was Elros Tar Minyatur (notice the tie in to ancient Crete/Atlantis in Numenorean legends)Tar-Elendil was the 3rd king and from his son Valandil the Lords of the Andúnië descended done to Amandil the last lord and his son Elendil the Tall. In this time there were 14 Kings with the Tar- Prefix and then 6 with the Ar- Prefix. That would be 20 very long generations but the Kings line were diminishing and the faithfuls line was not diminishing as quick so this span could be from 15-20 generations.
Now starting with Elendil the Tall we have 10 kings of Arnor, 15 Kings of Arthedain and 15 Chieftains before Aragorn II (King Elessar Telcontir).
This gives us 58 to 63 Generation between Elros & Aragorn.
Worth Noting Melian the Maia was Elros’s Great Great Grandmother. So add 4 more Generations for Aragorn descent from a “Lesser Angel”.
Sorry…a lame attempt at sublte humor…I think there’s a thread past in which an argument ensued about the exact number of descendants between Aragorn and Elrond. It was very amusing to me. Hence…A lot.
I was also referring to the fact that if anyone would know, then Qadgop would. It was my…awe of his knowldege of Tolkien.
/end **Qadgop ** worship
As for Denethor, saoirse, I also think he’s a very interesting character in an epic full of interesting characters. But he was also an ass to just about everyone but himself. Oh, and Boromir.
Personally, I’d like to know lots more about Helm Hammerhand.
There’s not that much to tell. He gets a few paragraphs in the Appendices. He was a King of Rohan some centuries before and he got his surname because he slew another guy (who was giving him 'tude) with one blow of his hand. There were hard times besetting Rohan and Helm took to going out into the freezing winter nights and fighting barehanded against the assorted nuisances. A superstition grew up that if he bore no weapon, no weapon could harm him. Certainly he enjoyed some success for a time. Eventually he was found frozen to death, still on guard against the invaders, raiders, what have you.
/stuff out of my head 'cos I can’t wait until I have cites to chime in with my two-penn’orth.
Well said. Through the palantirs, Sauron weakened Denethor’s “faith” (not quite accurate, but for lack of a better word) in the eventual outcome of good, leading him towards despair. Faramir’s apparent death (which would end the line of the Stewards at a point of crisis in the ongoing defense against Mordor) pushed him over the edge (figuratively; the jump-to-his-death was one of PJ’s more forgiveable uncanonicities).
Don’t feel bad; Manwe had the same problem, when Varda moved out and sued for “irreconcilable differences.”
Meh. Only in relative terms. Absolutely speaking, Jackson traduced Denethor right to the end; in the book, he was still hardass enough to break his staff of office and lay down calmly on his funeral pyre, letting out only one cry before dying.
I understood all that, it is just very rare that Master QtM lets a question (even in jest) pass and I decided to break out the Red Book and determine the answer as it was of interest to me. (The smiley wink let me know you weren’t really expecting an answer, it just made me curious)
And don’t forget, he’s got a particular beef with Aragorn specifically; in his youth, Aragorn served Ecthelion under the name Thorongil, and due to his exploits (smashing the strength of Umbar in that generation), he was raised above Denethor in the eyes of the people and his father. Denethor is later able to puzzle out who this stranger was, and his resentment comes to a boil when he sees Aragorn coming to ‘supplant’ him. Like Saruman*, he links all of the happy coincidences that our heroes have experienced into a conspiracy against him, and it sends him over the edge.
*it is revealed that Saruman assumed that Gandalf’s preoccupation with the Shire was proof of his desire to have the Ring all along, rather than Gandalf being attracted to the virtues of the Hobbits as a people.
I have to question your math. You seem to have too many Kings of Numenor according to Appendix A of the Red Book. I only have 24 not 26. Additionally it was mentioned somewhere that the line of the kings did decline faster than the Lords. So there may have been less generations.
These are the names of the Kings and Queens of Numenor:
Elros Tar-Minyatur
Vardamir
Tar-Amandil
Tar-Elendil -> *Eldest child was his daughter Silmarien her son first Valandil first Lord of Andunie. *
Tar-Meneldur
Tar-Aldarion {same generation as Valandil first Lord of Andunie}
Tar-Ancalime (the first Ruling Queen)
Tar-Anarion
Tar-Surion
Tar-Telperion (the second Queen)
Tar-Minastir
Tar-Ciryatan
Tar-Atanamir the Great
Tar-Ancalimon
Tar-Telemmaite
Tar-Vanimelde (the third Queen)
Tar-Alcarin
Tar-Calmacil. *After Tar-Calmacil the Kings took the sceptre in names of the Numenorean (or Adunaic) tongue: *
Ar-Adunahkor
Ar-Zimrathon
Ar-Sakalthor
Ar-Gimilzor
Ar-Inziladun. Inziladun repented of the ways of the Kings and changes his name to Tar-Palantir ‘The Farsighted’. His daughter should have been the fourth Queen Tar-Miriel but the King’s nephew usurped the sceptre and became
Ar-Pharazon the Golden last King of the Numenoreans.
What about the Lessening of the lifespan of the Kings vs the Faithful?
Does this ring true to you?
I cannot find where I got this from, but I remember it clearly.
Hey, I’ll join you–not on the movie depiction, but on JRRT’s version.
Denethor, through accident or not, was nearly pure Numenorean (a quirk of the “blood,” per the book, which we should discuss some time–how much of a role does “blood” really play for JRRT, and how much free will?), as was Faramir. Boromir was not. Denethor loved Boromir more, but it was from pity’s sake–here was his dear eldest son who could never quite have the nobility/understanding that came with the blood of Numenor. Faramir had this–Denethor was tough with him because he was so like himself–Denethor knew Faramir had the chops to be noble and to carry the burdens that went with his gifts–the suicide missions at the end to Ithilien and the crossings were Denethor showing everyone just how noble Faramir could be, beyond the run-of-the-mill human. (JRRT once said that he emphathized most with Faramir of all of his characters–which says, I think, something about his admiration for obedience to a proper master–which is in turn an acknowledgement that Denethor had the goods to be such a proper master.) It is Denethor’s belief that Faramir is dead that leads him to his final crisis.
Denethor was indeed one of the greatest living men of the day, someone who could command the kind of difficult/immediate discipline and obedience needed to rule a city at war with non-human evil. He is admirable–he is supposed to be–if he wasn’t there wouldn’t be much point to the tragedy of his end.
Turning him into a barbarian slobbering food down his front–mumble mumble @%#&*, etc.
Exactly so. It’d be like playing Othello as a semi-literate moron who was always abusive towards Desdemona in the first place, and so it comes as no surprise when he smothers her in a fit of rage. The marvel is how well Tolkien fleshes out Denethor when the guy’s on stage for so few chapters. A man who secretly sleeps armed and armoured so he won’t go soft should not have been portrayed as a barely-shy-of-senile halfwit.
Also interesting given that Earendur is listed as the 15th lord of the Andunie after Valandil in the essay cited by me above. 16 generations in 2000 years. Must think about it later.
Interesting article. I wish the Professor had managed to right about 50 more volumes. He left such a rich world in so many small notes.
Responding to the article is difficult as I have only one clue for his source material. In my UT 223
Notes on Tar-Palantir (King #24): His grandmother was Earendur’s Sister.
So the 15th Lord was of age with the 22nd king and the first Lord Valandil was of Tar-Aldarian’s Generation (King #6). So this appears to confirm a few less generations. At least 2 and probably 2.
